Liverpool FC Forum

by **Rush Job** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:23 pm

Sabre wrote:Yep, interesting post.

I think Xabi being slow in terms of pace, which he is, may be a reason to ask him not to go upper in the pitch, but I think it's something more related to our style of playing.

Rafa Benitez is not a defensive manager, but certainly he is not a gung ho one: he takes precautions, and that's why we concede few goals, besides having good CB.

When we play two strikers, the holding midfielder has to cover everything, from Gerrard's back, who enters the oppo box often, to the Arbeloa attacks from Right back. Under two strikers, I think that neither Alonso nor Mascherano should go upper often.

But, if we play the double holding mid we're playing as of late, you have to switch between the two holding mids to go upper from time to time. You couldn't tell who plays deeper, Mascherano or Alonso, because they switch depending on the play. I suspect that's where Barry comes into the equation, I think Rafa might see under that system a better companion for Mascherano in Barry, because according to your reports, he's more mobile.

I certainly think that Alonso could do that job when Mascherano covers him, mind you, but I feel that for that role you need someone who's capable of receiving the ball backwards and turn quickly, which is something Alonso doesn't do very well. Mascherano instead does that better than Alonso.

As you see, I like Alonso a lot, but at the same time, I think he's a very specific player, for a very specific role. In Spain, for the role you ask, he'd never have a place for the Spanish Squad. He'd be good at that, better than many for sure, but not as good as some of our midfielders. (Even Arteta might get the position for that role before ALonso, but he is not summoned. Alonso comes to the national squad for his natural role)

Similarly, I think that Rafa has found a great holding mid in Mascherano, so Alonso is not irreplaceable for the role any more. And for the role you ask, Alonso is not as good, or maybe not as complete as others, and that's where Barry might enter into the equation.

That is, I think Rafa will bring a player who'll bring more "options". But I don't know if you'll like that

About sums it up for me mate

by **Flepent** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:53 pm

Dundalk wrote:Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso says he has no intention of leaving the club following The Champions League exit against Chelsea.

The Spaniard had his sights set on a place in the Moscow final but Chelsea finally undid the Liverpool hoodoo to dump out the five-time champions of Europe.

The unrest in the Anfield boardroom has put the future of manager Rafa Benitez in doubt and rumours have linked Alonso with a move.

“My future is with Liverpool because I signed a contract. There are many rumours but I do not pay attention to them,” Alonso said.

“We are proud of what we have done in the Champions League and we are behind Benitez in the dressing room. I hope to play in more Champions League finals in my career.

“This defeat has hurt us a great deal but we have to show our professionalism and get on with the rest of the season.”

So if he is staying were does this leave the supposed move for Gareth Barry. Im glad he is staying to be honest, he still has a lot to offer

Xabi is amazing one best passers in game!

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:56 pm

Do you know what until i actualy hear it from Raffa or Xabis mouth that hes off i still have hope that he will wear the Red shirt of Liverpool next season.

by **Reg** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:30 pm

It certainly appears that Juve wont be able to close the deal until we have a final decision on Barry.

by **7_Kewell** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:48 pm

i'm still not convinced that Barry is a good replacement for Alonso!

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:50 pm

Sabre wrote:But, if we play the double holding mid we're playing as of late, you have to switch between the two holding mids to go upper from time to time. You couldn't tell who plays deeper, Mascherano or Alonso, because they switch depending on the play. I suspect that's where Barry comes into the equation, I think Rafa might see under that system a better companion for Mascherano in Barry, because according to your reports, he's more mobile.

I certainly think that Alonso could do that job when Mascherano covers him, mind you, but I feel that for that role you need someone who's capable of receiving the ball backwards and turn quickly, which is something Alonso doesn't do very well.

It's never easy to deduce much about Rafa's intentions, but in this instance I find it very difficult to surmise anything other than Barry being a direct swap for Alonso.

The reasons for the intended swap are up for debate, but certainly Barry offers slightly different qualities which complement the position more than Alonso's.

Mobility/agility,strength on the ball, and a bit more of a goal threat are the main qualities which Xabi lacks in comparison to Barry. Not in great amounts, just slightly.

Xabi of course is the better passer, he has better vision, positioning and awareness.

Barry would probably get a few more goals a season than Xabi, his goals record at Villa would indicate as much, and this is probably down to the fact that he's a bit more mobile and can get the shot off a bit quicker.

Alonso's natural game is slightly deeper than Barry's anyway, so I can understand Rafa's intentions, even if I don't agree with them. For the sake of the hassle, the time it takes to get him - which may prevent us from progressing with other targets - the risk he might not adapt (though probably quite slim), it perhaps isn't worth it.

Overall, I don't think we'll be affected detrimentally if the swap (in effect) takes place, i.e. I don't think it'd set us back in our attempts to challenge for the title. Whether or not we secure a winger or two/full back/striker concerns me much more.

by **Sabre** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:06 am

That post was very informative, thanks. But, Strenght in the ball? Barry must be impressive then, because the ability to put balls from his own pitch from Alonso indicate IMHO that he's good at that. Most Primera players don't do that kind of shot because they don't have the accuracy, but the strenght.

Maybe you mean that he's able to mount a powerful shot quicker and thus more often than Xabi? because if he has more strenght on the ball, I'm eager to see that.

However, Rafa knows his job, and I doubt he'd swap any player for the detriment of the team: He probably hopes to improve it and will explain us what he seeks when he signs Barry.

Sometimes it's not important what a player it is by himself, but what makes to the context of the team. Sometimes an equal, slightly better, or slightly worse player can make the rest of the team click. The point you mention about being more aggressive going upwards might be a key one, IMHO.

Then you also have the possibility that in that swap you get closer to the 6+5 rule without losing much quality in the process (or maybe even winning quality we shall see).

Anyway, as you and many others, if we lost Alonso I'd like to get a good money that would reinforce the wings.

Let me put it this way, Rafa, last summers has been looking for strikers and wingers, that's why he brought the Voronins, the Torres, the Gonzalezs, the Pennants, the Babels. He got Torres and was spot on, but I haven't seen such an impact in the wings. Thus, I'd find strange the wings not being a main priority for us this summer mate, we never got that position totally right.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:18 am

Sabre wrote:However, Rafa knows his job, and I doubt he'd swap any player for the detriment of the team: He probably hopes to improve it and will explain us what he seeks when he signs Barry.

Sometimes it's not important what a player it is by himself, but what makes to the context of the team. Sometimes a equal, slightly better, or slightly worse player can make the rest of the team click.

That's the most pertinent point in the entire debate. It would seem that the move seeks to address a lack of balance in the midfield, and even if overall Alonso is the better midfield player, in our system and for the role we require the abilities of Barry may be suited better. Small details concerning the balance of the team can make it click. You made a point a while back about Real Madrid, they had a great team that was successful, they signed even more great players, but they didn't click and they experienced a lull. I think something similar happened at Barcelona, they saw Henry as a great player, they signed him, but without much thought as to where he'd fit in and how he'd affect the balance of the team.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:21 am

Course the finest amount of detail, the tiniest alteration can have a huge effect on the balance, rhythm and fluency of the team. Can anybody see where I'm going with this?

by **taff** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:32 am

Whoever it is Barry or Alonso the key is the defence and how they help the team overall especially in attacking. As much as I love Carra and Hypia it was painfully clear how much we missed Agger, who can bring the ball out. If we use the 4-2-3-1 system then we cannot bypass the holding midfielders as they can dictate the attacking tempo especially with the fullbacks becoming more attacking minded, if we progress this way and I think we will with everything Rafa has done and said over his career then I think Alonso is the best man for the job, however if its money as an issue and versatility then Barry is the man I admit reluctantly although I would love to have both as Barry could go wide and we need the strength as Rafa will rotate.

If its financial and we get Barry but sell Alonso but enabling us to buy big, Villa etc etc (another debate

) then I can go along with that but if Barry is the big signing and we sell Alonso to fund it then we are in a bit of trouble to be honest as we would be in the bottom three of spenders but demanding the league. The squad we have assembled should see us comfortably in the top four but instead of aiming higher we would be looking over our shoulders at the likes of Villa Spurs Man City etc.

I can handle the Barry thing even though I think Alonso is fantastic but I would be distraught if we didnt get a top signing especially with the expectations as that would inevitably mean the end of Rafa and if we dont back him with money then it would either be an insult to back somebody else or frightening to look for a manager to give us success on a shoestring

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:47 am

well i have heard gerrard come out and say he wants to partner barry and what a great signing it will be, I am yet to hear him say 'keep alonso, i love playing in midfield with him'.

lets leave the decision to rafa, the funny thing is the guys on here bemoaning us going after barry and looking to offload alonso are the same guys who spout the "in rafa we trust" bollox. well if you trust the guy to always do the the right thing then stop questioning it, or are you now admitting that rafa is flawed when it comes to the transfer market?

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:53 am

bigmick wrote:Course the finest amount of detail, the tiniest alteration can have a huge effect on the balance, rhythm and fluency of the team. Can anybody see where I'm going with this?

Struggling tbh.

by **taff** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:59 am

peewee wrote:well i have heard gerrard come out and say he wants to partner barry and what a great signing it will be, I am yet to hear him say 'keep alonso, i love playing in midfield with him'.

lets leave the decision to rafa, the funny thing is the guys on here bemoaning us going after barry and looking to offload alonso are the same guys who spout the "in rafa we trust" bollox. well if you trust the guy to always do the the right thing then stop questioning it, or are you now admitting that rafa is flawed when it comes to the transfer market?

fair point to be honest, we can always blame the owners

I do trust Rafa but I am still allowed to question a decision especially if we lose a player I rate very highly. Of course he will make mistakes I can accept that but it doesnt mean I dont think that long term he is the best man for the job.

If however we buy or sell players on Gerrards say so then something has gone wrong, great world class player but not the manager, although I am sceptical about SG pulling the strings

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:59 am

bigmick wrote:Course the finest amount of detail, the tiniest alteration can have a huge effect on the balance, rhythm and fluency of the team. Can anybody see where I'm going with this?

I can, and although I could quiet easily see, there are many who argue such things.

We'll see at the start of the season. And in that Lets just wait and see. Frustrating is the key word here. I cant help but feel "Frustrating" will be the end word.

by **taff** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:09 am

peewee wrote:well i have heard gerrard come out and say he wants to partner barry and what a great signing it will be, I am yet to hear him say 'keep alonso, i love playing in midfield with him'.

lets leave the decision to rafa, the funny thing is the guys on here bemoaning us going after barry and looking to offload alonso are the same guys who spout the "in rafa we trust" bollox. well if you trust the guy to always do the the right thing then stop questioning it, or are you now admitting that rafa is flawed when it comes to the transfer market?

fair point to be honest, we can always blame the owners

I do trust Rafa but I am still allowed to question a decision especially if we lose a player I rate very highly. Of course he will make mistakes I can accept that but it doesnt mean I dont think that long term he is the best man for the job.

If however we buy or sell players on Gerrards say so then something has gone wrong, great world class player but not the manager, although I am sceptical about SG pulling the strings

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