Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:01 pm

Here's a totally unbiased view of Alonso, Sabre

Senna's agent slams Alonso11:48, June 14, 2008
Marcos Senna's agent has stirred up controversy within the Spanish camp by saying his client is twice as good as Xabi Alonso.

Senna's agent Manuel Butragueño has been upset by Juventus moving for Alonso rather than his client after claiming Juve manager Claudio Ranieri contacted him looking for a player like Senna.

"Two months ago I spoke with Ranieri," Butragueño told CalcioMercato. "He said they were looking for a player of Senna's style, yet today they want Liverpool's Xabi Alonso. I find that amazing.

"Senna's better than Alonso, and with the Spanish national side he is ahead of him.

"I think the fact that their interest has dampened must be political. Juventus want to pay twice as much for a player who is worse than Senna."

It is believed that Alonso has agreed a move to the Stadio Olimpico and is just waiting for the two clubs to agree a transfer fee.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:02 pm

bigmick wrote:I personally think the forum is an edgy place at the moment and none the better for it. People are less inclined to debate the topic at hand than they are to snipe away at the poster.

Nail on head here, mate. Some of the battle lines around here have been etched so deeply for so long that all you get are personal jibes and digs instead of considered discussion when certain topics come up. It's usually a two-way street, although I'll give you all the credit in the world for frequently biting your lip and refusing to get embroiled in flame wars when things go down that road. I think everybody could stand to relax a bit, take a breath and recognize that football forums are meant to be about having some fun debating the topics of the day and perhaps learning something along the way rather than taking the p!ss at every turn.

I questioned the "thought police" moniker, mate, because it suggests that there are some roaming band of thugs who work in concert to keep the board 'right thinking.' That I don't see. Rather, I see individuals on both sides of the Rafa/Alonso/Kuyt/rotation divide taking swipes at individuals in the other camp. Whether there truly are 'thought police' or not, though, I think your spot on that true debate is kinding of falling by the wayside of late. Let's see if we can't change that, eh?

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:04 pm

s@int wrote:Here's a totally unbiased view of Alonso, Sabre

Senna's agent slams Alonso11:48, June 14, 2008
Marcos Senna's agent has stirred up controversy within the Spanish camp by saying his client is twice as good as Xabi Alonso.

Senna's agent Manuel Butragueño has been upset by Juventus moving for Alonso rather than his client after claiming Juve manager Claudio Ranieri contacted him looking for a player like Senna.

"Two months ago I spoke with Ranieri," Butragueño told CalcioMercato. "He said they were looking for a player of Senna's style, yet today they want Liverpool's Xabi Alonso. I find that amazing.

"Senna's better than Alonso, and with the Spanish national side he is ahead of him.

"I think the fact that their interest has dampened must be political. Juventus want to pay twice as much for a player who is worse than Senna."

It is believed that Alonso has agreed a move to the Stadio Olimpico and is just waiting for the two clubs to agree a transfer fee.

Nice find, mate.

:laugh:

by **Number 9** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:07 pm

s@int wrote:Here's a totally unbiased view of Alonso, Sabre

Senna's agent slams Alonso11:48, June 14, 2008
Marcos Senna's agent has stirred up controversy within the Spanish camp by saying his client is twice as good as Xabi Alonso.

Senna's agent Manuel Butragueño has been upset by Juventus moving for Alonso rather than his client after claiming Juve manager Claudio Ranieri contacted him looking for a player like Senna.

"Two months ago I spoke with Ranieri," Butragueño told CalcioMercato. "He said they were looking for a player of Senna's style, yet today they want Liverpool's Xabi Alonso. I find that amazing.

"Senna's better than Alonso, and with the Spanish national side he is ahead of him.

"I think the fact that their interest has dampened must be political. Juventus want to pay twice as much for a player who is worse than Senna."

It is believed that Alonso has agreed a move to the Stadio Olimpico and is just waiting for the two clubs to agree a transfer fee.

Sabre will love you now Saint!!

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:09 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Leaving aside the question of how we know that none of the big Premiership teams have made any discrete inquiries and assuming there's something to the notion that they haven't, I would think a couple of factors are at play. First--and I'll just get this out of the way directly, so I'm not accused of having Alonso-coloured specs--there's the sense that Xabi is not the force he once was when he came to England. That might account for some of the lack of interest amongst the top sides. More significantly, I would argue, is that there would be no room for Alonso at either Chelsea or Man U, such are their riches at CM. Arsenal, I think, would do quite well to have a sniff but, then again, they don't prefer to spend big money if they can find a young lad to groom into the role. Add to that the strong possibility that Liverpool and the player himself would reject any move to a rival out of hand and, to me, it's not quite so surprising that the big English clubs aren't sniffing around (if indeed they're not).

I dont think Manchester United would try and sign a Liverpool player, but if they did I highly doubt it would be Xabi. I know Fergie said some years ago he would of liked Gerrard in his team, but Gerrard and Xabi IMo are on almost two different planets when compairing football. Still I dont think Fergie would see Xabi as an improvement to his sides DM's. On Newkitt we knock the likes of Carrick who was a lot of money and Hargreaves to. But personally Xabi in his current state isnt much better IMO. Hargreaves has the engine and legs on him, Carricks a similar stock of player. Obviously if Xabi was that good as some make him out to be around here, he'd walk into any team, this doesnt seem the case. IMO there are many better holding midfielders out there who do the holding position plus more, like support an attack from time to time etc etc.

Chelsea on the other hand would have the audacity to put in a bid, and go public with it, but again and IMO what they probably have there already is sufficient enough, not to bother with an Alonso bid. Maybe they have placed in a bid both them and Man U but I'd be suprised if they did honestly. Arsenal are a team who would probably benefit from having Xabi as Flamini has just gone.

All in all though like has been said before, I'd sell Xabi to the highest bidder even Arsenal or Chelsea. Touching wood, I dont think he'd be the kind of player to come back and haunt us.

That's pretty much what I've said: that neither Man U nor Chelsea need Alonso at the moment. I think the fact that Man U already have Carrick who plays basically the same role is the key. Unlike us, they don't seem interested in swapping like for like when other areas of their squad need more attention (striker for instance). If they didn't have Carrick already and had to choose, though, I suspect Alonso would be Fergie's choice (not factoring in the 6 +5 etc.).

by **Sabre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:12 pm

Fúcking Senna. First we give him a fúcking passport. Then we allow his agent talk bóllocks.

Off to Brazil, you cúnt

Obviously that's an agent trying to get a profit of a tranfer. That's agents for you.

If you want to pick a 7500 vote poll in Marca, S@int, you'll find that Alonso receives twice as votes as Senna from the fans, playing abroad and all. :nod

P.S. And I hope we have at least the bias to support the player playing the red shirt, for once!

by **metalhead** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:21 pm

Sabre wrote:Fúcking Senna. First we give him a fúcking passport. Then we allow his agent talk bóllocks.

Off to Brazil, you cúnt

Obviously that's an agent trying to get a profit of a tranfer. That's agents for you.

If you want to pick a 7500 vote poll in Marca, S@int, you'll find that Alonso receives twice as votes as Senna from the fans, playing abroad and all.

P.S. And I hope we have at least the bias to support the player playing the red shirt, for once!

by **Sabre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:31 pm

Anyhow, and in all seriousness, Senna is a good holding mid, and it's true he's half as expensive. It would have been a good swap to sell Alonso and get Senna for half the price, because it would be profit while drop of quality woudn't be big.

by **SundanceKid** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:57 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
But I can't see like you clearly that Rafa thinks Barry is better.

maybe not "better" but he has more dimensions to his game and can add a few things that Alonso doesnt have. Okay maybe thats not technically better then, but its something ?

That basically translates to 'Barry is better than Xabi'

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:25 pm

Any updates on me Xabi

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:33 pm

Not much news Nanny.

Some Barcelona press are jealous of the praises Torres is doing about our Xabi Alonso and Arsenal's Fabregas. They say that Xavi (Barcelona) doesn't "connect" with our Nando, and that's why the continous praises of Torres.

The graph indicates the position where a player is more often and the kind of passes they make. You see Xabi behind Xavi for instance, and you see Xabi's vertical passes are more often tan Xavi's.

With this graph they try to explain what kind of passes Xavi (Barcelona) makes and how that doesn't suit our Torres.

Personally I think that's bóllocks, but here we go. Torres might be benefitted from a certain style, but not that I think he's less compatible with anyone.

Their theory is that while Gerrard's, Alonso's and Cesc's passes know to be vertical, Xavi's passes are not.

But again, it's a matter of style IMHO: Spain can't afford to lose the ball like Liverpool, because we can't recover it as effectively.

As for ALonso's transfer, the Spanish press just echoes what Corriere dello sport says, nothing new.

by **Reg** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:42 pm

Sabre wrote:But again, it's a matter of style IMHO: Spain can't afford to lose the ball like Liverpool, because we can't recover it as effectively.

thats cos Spain doesnt have El Carra !!!

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:52 pm

Meanwhile the Italians bring the money, I will bring an interesting (for me) opinion of two pundits I respect, Santiago VAquerizo and Santi Plaza, on the Sennas vs Alonso debate.

Santi Plaza: My choose is Xabi Alonso over Senna. I must admit that I'm tempted to ask for a DNA test to check whether he's the same man I watch Playing at Liverpool, because so far he hasn't excelled for Spain.

All in all, I preffer Alonso because he has more potential and class, rather than to chose the safe option of the holding mid that will mark a "6" or "7", a safe man which you know his limitations. Senna has done indeed a good season and is a safe bet, but Xabi Alonso can give us more.

He then brings a point point Bigmick has mentioned often...

"In the last preparation matcches, Sennas has stepped forward more often than Xabi and that makes him to highlight more. In reality, I think this is more Aragones' fault than player's fault: Yesterday, Aragones insisted that Senna had to limit his going ups in the pitch, since Russia will counter attack us more (which they did before the first goal). In my opinion, Alonso was more disciplined with the instuctions he received, and that's why he seems more static in the games that he has played with the red squad"

Which is exactly why I think that if you want Alonso go upper, you'd have to talk with Rafa. IMHO it's more instructions than decission of the player.

One of the aspects I like of Alonso is that he's the classical guy of my town. No high profile, a servant rather than a star.

Enrique Vaquerizo, says: I admit Xabi Alonso is a player I really enjoy and that provide extra things as a holding midfielder, that are more seen often in a creative midfielder (this must be the Spanish description of the deep lying playmaker). All in all, Spanish midfield is too light hearted and too weak physically, and I think that's why perhaps Aragones will bet for the stronger Senna.

I think it's interesting that blog because they always touch relevant footie points, and in fact, they have touched some aspects of Xabi's game we discuss here often.

Original Spanish doc:

http://www.notasdefutbol.com/2008....-alonso

P.S. The other two pundits also prefer Alonso, but their points are not as good, so I won't translate. (I've got to do a couple of things, if someone is interested request it).

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:25 pm

Sabre wrote:Which is exactly why I think that if you want Alonso go upper, you'd have to talk with Rafa. IMHO it's more instructions than decission of the player.

Well if that is the case Sabes, that Alonso sits as deep as he does for as much of the game as he does under Rafa's instructions, there are two "options" or "possibilties" in terms of conclusions.

Firstly, is it the case that Rafa believes that due to Xabi's lack of pace,asking him to get over the half way line often would leave him too often exposed and unable to get back? If that is the case, then I'm not sure I agree. Firstly, Xabi doesn't need to be a box to box midfielder. He doesn't need to be getting beyond Torres or Gerrard, he simply needs to be in contact with them. Torres passes to Gerrard and vice versa siimply because half the time there isn't another Liverpool player within thirty yards of them. The good teams are able to too easily isolate out two best players from the rest of the team. Also, I would have a bit more faith in Masherano and our defence. We have the best holding midfielder in the Premiership, let Xabi play football and let Mash do his job. He can.

Secondly I give you this. If Barry is being brought in to simply play in the same way that Xabi does, then we are swapping one player for a player who isn't as good. Even allowing for the fact that Alonso doesn't contribute his defence splitting passes anymore, he is a better passer in the purest sense than Barry in my opinion. He passes with more appreciation, he dictates the rhythm of the game better, controls its flow much like a conductor. Barry isn't better at that.

So to conclude. If Xabi is acting under Rafa's instructions, Rafa should IMHO consider saving himself 15 million quid and letting Alonso have a go at supporting the front two. I really believe he could do the job, the barriers are within the heads of the player and manager and not in terms of ability.

If on the other hand Xabi isn't acting under the managers instructions, but actually isn't following the managers instructions then I can understand the decision. Barry will support the front two and also defend. He won't play box to box but he will score and make goals, as well as doing the mythical "unseen" work very effectively.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:42 pm

Yep, interesting post.

I think Xabi being slow in terms of pace, which he is, may be a reason to ask him not to go upper in the pitch, but I think it's something more related to our style of playing.

Rafa Benitez is not a defensive manager, but certainly he is not a gung ho one: he takes precautions, and that's why we concede few goals, besides having good CB.

When we play two strikers, the holding midfielder has to cover everything, from Gerrard's back, who enters the oppo box often, to the Arbeloa attacks from Right back. Under two strikers, I think that neither Alonso nor Mascherano should go upper often.

But, if we play the double holding mid we're playing as of late, you have to switch between the two holding mids to go upper from time to time. You couldn't tell who plays deeper, Mascherano or Alonso, because they switch depending on the play. I suspect that's where Barry comes into the equation, I think Rafa might see under that system a better companion for Mascherano in Barry, because according to your reports, he's more mobile.

I certainly think that Alonso could do that job when Mascherano covers him, mind you, but I feel that for that role you need someone who's capable of receiving the ball backwards and turn quickly, which is something Alonso doesn't do very well. Mascherano instead does that better than Alonso.

As you see, I like Alonso a lot, but at the same time, I think he's a very specific player, for a very specific role. In Spain, for the role you ask, he'd never have a place for the Spanish Squad. He'd be good at that, better than many for sure, but not as good as some of our midfielders. (Even Arteta might get the position for that role before ALonso, but he is not summoned. Alonso comes to the national squad for his natural role)

Similarly, I think that Rafa has found a great holding mid in Mascherano, so Alonso is not irreplaceable for the role any more. And for the role you ask, Alonso is not as good, or maybe not as complete as others, and that's where Barry might enter into the equation.

That is, I think Rafa will bring a player who'll bring more "options". But I don't know if you'll like that

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