Liverpool FC Forum

bavlondon wrote:Switch on BBC news....looks like madness down at White City. Might swing down there after work as I pass it on the way home.

heimdall wrote:

bavlondon wrote:Switch on BBC news....looks like madness down at White City. Might swing down there after work as I pass it on the way home.

Yeah and that actually annoys me. The most fundamental thing I believe in is democracy. I hate socialists and commies but I respect there right of assembly, as much as I despise what the BNP stand for, being a Norwegian living in the UK, I respect their rights as well. They are a completely irrelevant and ghastly party and will show themselves up tonight on question time.
All that these protesters are doing is giving them more publicity and giving the BNP someone to shake their stick at. At the moment, if asked, most people would probably condemn these anti-fascism people more than they would condemn the BNP appearing on question time, it's a stupid tactic from the protesters.

LFC2007 wrote:

heimdall wrote:

bavlondon wrote:Switch on BBC news....looks like madness down at White City. Might swing down there after work as I pass it on the way home.

Yeah and that actually annoys me. The most fundamental thing I believe in is democracy. I hate socialists and commies but I respect there right of assembly, as much as I despise what the BNP stand for, being a Norwegian living in the UK, I respect their rights as well. They are a completely irrelevant and ghastly party and will show themselves up tonight on question time.
All that these protesters are doing is giving them more publicity and giving the BNP someone to shake their stick at. At the moment, if asked, most people would probably condemn these anti-fascism people more than they would condemn the BNP appearing on question time, it's a stupid tactic from the protesters.

You live in the UK?

uhoh    I've said too much

yes I do, grew up here, university etc

LFC2007 wrote:We even let Heimdalls in

Came in on EasyLorry 

Bad Bob wrote:

Reg wrote:Steady bav........  found a great site http://www.populstat.info/

The population of the UK in 1800 at the height of our Empire building was 10.5 million. By 1900 when it was all over, we were at 35.4 million a sure sign of prosperity.

Our primary concern was India in which in 1800 had an amazing 255 million already but that includes Pakistan and Bangladesh, so a massive land area. China meanwhile in 1800 was at 295 mio.

South Africa by comparison, another strategic empire country had just 1 mio in 1868 their first attempt at a survey. 

You have to bear in mind population density, otherwise little Britains´s 10.5 million population couldnt have conquered the sea and the land being so widely and sparsely spread. On the whole, we administered not dominated by numbers.

With todays massively higher population densities, immigrant related friction starts more easily and is more difficult to control.

It will only become more difficult as world population numbers and densities continue to increase.

Fair point, Reg.  You didn't send massive numbers overseas even at the height of the British Empire.  You did, however, fundamentally transform the societies of these colonies, though--arguably on a much greater scale than the current transformation of British society at the hands of immigrants that the BNP and others seem so concerned about.  Political systems, economic relations, social structures, cultural practices even the basic geography of things like cities were affected by your colonial administrators in the colonies.

Just as significantly, the colonial period established the foundations for a commonwealth system that has since encouraged numerous 'colonials' to seek their education and often their livelihood in the UK, which seems a fair exchange for the way Britain has undoubtedly benefited from its imperial relationships.  Of course, recent concerns seem more focused on EU issues than Commonwealth issues but, there again, the UK has benefited from aligning itself with a powerful economic trading block.  From an outsider's perspective, it would seem that these benefits might overshadow some of the negatives associated with an influx of immigration.

I'm not trying to be glib here--massive influxes of immigrants create difficulties the world over and have done for a long time.  But, it's important, I think, to understand these influxes in their appropriate geo-historical context because they didn't just arise in a vacuum.

With all that said, I'm just some Canadian running his mouth at the end of the day and you can feel free to dismiss my outsider's perspective out of hand.  I won't take offense. 

Reg wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

Reg wrote:Steady bav........  found a great site http://www.populstat.info/

The population of the UK in 1800 at the height of our Empire building was 10.5 million. By 1900 when it was all over, we were at 35.4 million a sure sign of prosperity.

Our primary concern was India in which in 1800 had an amazing 255 million already but that includes Pakistan and Bangladesh, so a massive land area. China meanwhile in 1800 was at 295 mio.

South Africa by comparison, another strategic empire country had just 1 mio in 1868 their first attempt at a survey. 

You have to bear in mind population density, otherwise little Britains´s 10.5 million population couldnt have conquered the sea and the land being so widely and sparsely spread. On the whole, we administered not dominated by numbers.

With todays massively higher population densities, immigrant related friction starts more easily and is more difficult to control.

It will only become more difficult as world population numbers and densities continue to increase.

Fair point, Reg.  You didn't send massive numbers overseas even at the height of the British Empire.  You did, however, fundamentally transform the societies of these colonies, though--arguably on a much greater scale than the current transformation of British society at the hands of immigrants that the BNP and others seem so concerned about.  Political systems, economic relations, social structures, cultural practices even the basic geography of things like cities were affected by your colonial administrators in the colonies.

Just as significantly, the colonial period established the foundations for a commonwealth system that has since encouraged numerous 'colonials' to seek their education and often their livelihood in the UK, which seems a fair exchange for the way Britain has undoubtedly benefited from its imperial relationships.  Of course, recent concerns seem more focused on EU issues than Commonwealth issues but, there again, the UK has benefited from aligning itself with a powerful economic trading block.  From an outsider's perspective, it would seem that these benefits might overshadow some of the negatives associated with an influx of immigration.

I'm not trying to be glib here--massive influxes of immigrants create difficulties the world over and have done for a long time.  But, it's important, I think, to understand these influxes in their appropriate geo-historical context because they didn't just arise in a vacuum.

With all that said, I'm just some Canadian running his mouth at the end of the day and you can feel free to dismiss my outsider's perspective out of hand.  I won't take offense. 

Hey Bob.

I take your point we 'fundamentally transform the societies of these colonies'. As you say, economic and political history shows it was the British Empire that spread both democracy and capitalism to the furthest corners, invested in local assets in those corners and created industry and jobs were little or non had existed beforehand. Not all bad then eh? We even invented the US city grid system even though we dont employ it ourselves!  We didnt invent colonialism though Bob, the Romans predated us as did Atilla the Hun, Ghengis Khan and the Chinese warlord emporers. Credit where credits due.....

Major turning points in economic history include Britains agreement to source its meat and dairy needs from teh Commonwealth after WW1 (NZ and Oz) which started Argentina´s decline from taht very moment when they were the 6th biggest global ecoonomy. Agreements in 1974 to join the EEC anulled those same agreements as we were forced to source so many of our needs from members and not the empire. However post WW2 we were a shattered country and economy, the glory days were in the past so by 1974 we were towing the line to survive. Thats where we are today as well.

I find with the amount of travel I do that our greatest achievement was withdrawing from the empire in such an orderley and controlled manner leaving a well structured and able local government and civil service whereever and fully functioning legal system based on English Law which gave the newly independant nations the building blocks and discipline to create a future. Not all were successful but there is a strong admittancee that this was a local problem and not created by the Brits. I´ve been to Sudan, Pakistan and Bangladesh many times and the level fo goodwill towards the Brits is very revealing and without any doubt facilitates increased trust and business compared to say non-ex-empire countries in those regions.

Nelson´s generation created the bulk of the empire but it was only ever going to be temporary, we made money, created political, economic and legal systems where they hadn´t previously existed - we aligned the world to the Western methods then got out. Its brought decades of global peace, understanding and trade. If africa is suffering under dictators its not our fault, they´ve had 30-40 years to ajust to reality. If corruption in Pakistan has brought them close to the brink of destruction then again its navel gazing time for them because whilst we have proactive foreign policies the Pakistanis have walked into the trap hand wide open and whilst Iran pleads with the world the UK was somehow involved in that bombing recently... I suspect they regret not having been part of the empire.

I can live with immigrants, but the need for controls is common sense.

Point well made, Reg.  The positives of colonialism--an approach you didn't invent but largely perfected--are too rarely highlighted and fair dos for giving a rundown.  Of course, one might question whether the nuts and bolts of the capitalist system that your forebears brought to the colonial world were quite so locally beneficial as you suggest and I know of numerous native groups in Canada who might wish to question just how enlightened and progressive the legal system based on English Law has been for their communities but there you go. 

heimdall wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

heimdall wrote:

bavlondon wrote:Switch on BBC news....looks like madness down at White City. Might swing down there after work as I pass it on the way home.

Yeah and that actually annoys me. The most fundamental thing I believe in is democracy. I hate socialists and commies but I respect there right of assembly, as much as I despise what the BNP stand for, being a Norwegian living in the UK, I respect their rights as well. They are a completely irrelevant and ghastly party and will show themselves up tonight on question time.
All that these protesters are doing is giving them more publicity and giving the BNP someone to shake their stick at. At the moment, if asked, most people would probably condemn these anti-fascism people more than they would condemn the BNP appearing on question time, it's a stupid tactic from the protesters.

You live in the UK?

uhoh    I've said too much

yes I do, grew up here, university etc

LFC2007 wrote:

heimdall wrote:

bavlondon wrote:Switch on BBC news....looks like madness down at White City. Might swing down there after work as I pass it on the way home.

Yeah and that actually annoys me. The most fundamental thing I believe in is democracy. I hate socialists and commies but I respect there right of assembly, as much as I despise what the BNP stand for, being a Norwegian living in the UK, I respect their rights as well. They are a completely irrelevant and ghastly party and will show themselves up tonight on question time.
All that these protesters are doing is giving them more publicity and giving the BNP someone to shake their stick at. At the moment, if asked, most people would probably condemn these anti-fascism people more than they would condemn the BNP appearing on question time, it's a stupid tactic from the protesters.

You live in the UK?

Bloody
Norwegian's
Party