Liverpool FC Forum

by **KOPMATT** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:38 pm

However we also need to look at British players with the quality thats needed especially with the new constraints in clubs taking part in European competition.

by **Liverpool442** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:42 pm

Do we really think Rafa has had a change of heart and is now only going for quality or do we think the will spend what little money he has left on one of two 2nd rate players just before the end of the window, who we later have to be shipped out on loan when they fail to make the grade and then sold ?
I really hope he has changed his focus but I am not convinced

by **redbeergoggles** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:46 pm

I think we all know the squad is threadbare ,and a few injuries to key areas of the team have only served to highlight this problem ,I think we seriously missed the boat with Cattermole his energy and enthusiasm for the game is infectious ,and he would have provided the zest that was sorely lacking against Spurs ,Macherano simply didn't want to be there on Sunday, if he had we would have been more solid, his inclusion only served to destabilize our midfield and place added pressure on our defence.

I think if a player is not in the right frame of mind he shouldn't be included its that simple and Mascherano's train of thought was obviously on Rafa blocking his move to Barcelona ,I also believe the subject of squad size would have been raised sooner or later, even if we had won on Sunday ,but whether it would have been a source of such alarm and hysteria is another question entirely .

If the owners are stopping Rafa from equipping the team with the personnel he needs to secure the title ,then the onus should lie at their feet ,personally I think Ngog is a lot more competent in front of goal than people give credit ,and while Ayala is young he promises to be an uncompromising centre back ,who looked assured and steady on his Premiership debut ,as for Babel he should have been sold and replaced ,Benitez should also play Pacheco behind Torres and play Gerrard in centre mid ,I have a good feeling about Pacheco and his omission from the bench yesterday was a mystery .

by **Effes** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:49 pm

bigmick wrote:We all have our opinions on the squad, but most people are saying we could really do with such and such, or "he's rubbish we should get rid" etc. I've no doubts that if you went on a Manc forum they'd be saying the same thing, or a West Ham forum or whatever, so how real are peoples worries, and is it reasonable to ask how we got here?

Well firstly a couple of accepted givens (by almost everybody). You obviously need some goalie cover, you need four centre halves, four central midfielders and four strikers. You need credible cover for each position on the pitch, and probably a few kids thrown in. If you want to win the title, you might even need a couple of "options and possibility" players who you can chuck on. Maybe even a Luis garcia type who can find the bus keys under the seat and move it forward eight yards.

So where are we, being sensible?

Goalkeeper. We have goalie cover, I'm going to assume the Brazillian bloke is alright. Reina is also absolutely top class, so no worries.

Right Fullback. We have Johnson on the right who we have to assume is going to be excellent. Cover wise we don't have IMHO anybody credible. I knwo you could say "Degen" or "Darby", but I would counter whereas they may become realistic options, they aren't currently able to fill in if Johnson is out for six months.

Left Fullback. We have Aurelio who is pretty good when fit, along with Insua who is a good filler, and Dossena. I'd say we're Ok there, as long as one of the first two remains fit.

Centre backs. We have Carragher, Skyrtel and Agger. We need another one, pure and simple. No ifs and buts, you need four centre halves, and that doesn't include 18 year old kids.

Right midfielders. We have Kuyt , along with Benayoun, Babel at a push, El Zahar and Gerrard. We're OK squad wise.

Left midfeilders. We have Riera, along with Benayoun and Babel. I'd say we're OK.

Central midfielders. We have Masherano, Lucas, the new bloke when he's fit, Gerrard if we move him, Plessis, Lee Peltier, John Ostemboor and GYBS. I'd say we are a bit light, particularly given the fact that they new bloke gets injured occasionally and the fact that it's very questionable whther or not Lucas is good enough.

The support striker slot. We have Gerrard. We could also use Benayoun there, or Kuyt I'd say we were very short, particularly given the impression that Gerrard isn't currently fully fit.

Main striker. We have Torres. We also have the option (or indeed the possibility) of using Egg Nog, Voronin, or Kuyt I'd say we were light.

Now no doubt I've forgotten someone, but anyway that's broadly how it is. We need an absolute MINIMUM of a centre half and a striker/support striker.

IMHO the squad is very thin, is it anyones fault?

No honestly - we need more than 2 strikers.

by **KOPMATT** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:59 pm

I would love to see Pachero given a chance, but agree Effes we do need 1 or 2 quality strikers brought in.

by **Tim LFC** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:15 am

I know i might sound mad in saying this. But possibly couldn't we sell Masch for 30m or 40m and strengthen up in midfield with Van Der Varrt. Buy Tuncay and another CB and we might even have some cash to buy someone else if we sell Voronin. I know its crazy but selling Masch might benefit the squad more. And since he seemed like he really wants to go to Barca there's no point in keeping someone who doesn't want to be here and he wont put the effort in.

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:18 am

Sell our only decent defensive mid?

Yes, you are mad

by **Tim LFC** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:20 am

Bammo wrote:Sell our only decent defensive mid?

Yes, you are mad

Lucas has gotten much better at tackling. I know im mad but theres no point in keeping a player who doesn't want to be there. And when you can get some good price you can strengthen other areas? Yes im mad! :laugh:

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:24 am

I do see where you're coming from and I wouldn't be surprised if we do that next year (Masch to Barca).

The problem we'd have now is that we'd be left with Lucas but if he was off-form or injured then you're looking at Spearing/Plessis playing games on the trot. It wouldn't fill me with confidence.

Even if we did sell Masch for £30m+ would Rafa even see any of the money?

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:28 am

Tim LFC wrote:
Bammo wrote:Sell our only decent defensive mid?

Yes, you are mad

Lucas has gotten much better at tackling. I know im mad but theres no point in keeping a player who doesn't want to be there. And when you can get some good price you can strengthen other areas? Yes im mad!

You may not be mad mate and if Masherano doesn't buck his ideas up, there may be one or two who are wishing we had gone down a similar route. The trouble is as of now the season has already started, if we were going to sell Masherano it should have been done a month or two ago, not now.

Like always, a lot of these issues are interlinked. We held on and held on for the best possible price for Alonso, but we paid a price in terms of being prepared from day one. In so doing we won the big willy contest this time with Madrid, but we may have paid a heavy price for the victory. Similarly, although we as good as insisted Masherano was staying and effectively kept our man, if his perfromaces don't improve people will ask if it was worth it. Also, which is the reason I brought it up a few days ago, the man management thing does impact upon whether or not players want to stick around. I think Rafa realises that, which is why I get the feeling there is a fraction more arm around the shoulder going on.

For some of these lads who've been at Liverpool a few years though, Alonso being a prime example, it may have come a bit too late.

Whichever way you look at it though and whoever's fault it is, I cannot remember us going into a new season with such an ill equipped squad.

by **Tim LFC** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:30 am

Bammo wrote:I do see where you're coming from and I wouldn't be surprised if we do that next year (Masch to Barca).

The problem we'd have now is that we'd be left with Lucas but if he was off-form or injured then you're looking at Spearing/Plessis playing games on the trot. It wouldn't fill me with confidence.

Even if we did sell Masch for £30m+ would Rafa even see any of the money?

Well we could do it in January possibly. If Aquillani turns out to be a fantastic signing and Lucas shows improvement then we could strengthen up other areas. And if Rafa gets money in January as well we could have around 50m or 60m to spend if will sell Masch!

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:01 am

It says in the times that we've got 2 million quid for a centre half.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol....714.ece

by **Tim LFC** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:01 am

me Big Fat Harry is already looking for more signings for Spurs! We need to get our act together because Spurs already have a good enough squad!

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Liverpool442 wrote:In respect of your other point about "funds raised over and above", well so what ! how he came to the amount he has to spend does not matter, he has spent considerable money, and had 5 years to build a squad, so I simply cannot see how we are short on the opening game of a season at this point in time, I mean our bench was laughable for a team that should be title contenders.

But it does make a difference, mate. If Rafa is given a wedge of cash to spend from the owners and is able to use it go and sign the players he wants its different than if he has to sell before he can buy. In the second scenario he has to ship out players he might otherwise like to keep in order to raise funds to get the top players in that we need to truly have a go at the league. Look at our right back situation, for instance. We can all agree that Johnson is probably an improvement on Arbeloa but I think most of us might have preferred to hang onto the Spaniard as back-up as well. But in a 'sell in order to buy' scenario, Rafa doesn't always have that luxury. To my mind that goes someway to explaining why we have a relatively threadbare squad despite seemingly spending a lot of money on transfers during Rafa's time at the club. It also suggests that the money spent numbers need to be seriously juxtaposed with the money raised numbers, rather than just dismissing the latter as something that has no bearing on the former.

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:15 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Liverpool442 wrote:In respect of your other point about "funds raised over and above", well so what ! how he came to the amount he has to spend does not matter, he has spent considerable money, and had 5 years to build a squad, so I simply cannot see how we are short on the opening game of a season at this point in time, I mean our bench was laughable for a team that should be title contenders.

But it does make a difference, mate. If Rafa is given a wedge of cash to spend from the owners and is able to use it go and sign the players he wants its different than if he has to sell before he can buy. In the second scenario he has to ship out players he might otherwise like to keep in order to raise funds to get the top players in that we need to truly have a go at the league. Look at our right back situation, for instance. We can all agree that Johnson is probably an improvement on Arbeloa but I think most of us might have preferred to hang onto the Spaniard as back-up as well. But in a 'sell in order to buy' scenario, Rafa doesn't always have that luxury. To my mind that goes someway to explaining why we have a relatively threadbare squad despite seemingly spending a lot of money on transfers during Rafa's time at the club. It also suggests that the money spent numbers need to be seriously juxtaposed with the money raised numbers, rather than just dismissing the latter as something that has no bearing on the former.

All of which is true Bob, but if we start to tailspin this season due to a weak squad, people will ask the question all the same about the "rebuilding" which has taken place over five seasons.

My own take is fairly obviously from my stance over the years that we could have done it better. That debate though is for later, for now we've got to find the best way of getting into and staying in the title race.

Given the players available, I'd leave the same team for Stoke with the exception of replacing babel with Benayoun. If however Riera is fit, then as I said before the season started we may have to make a harsh decision. In that scenario I'd go with this as our best team :

Reina

Johnson Carragher Skyrtel Insua

Kuyt Gerrard Masherano Riera

Benayoun

Torres.

No surprises here, but I'd play that team until someone gets injured. No fecking about, revolving, gazelling, taking into account the opposition and all that old b0llocks (I might swap Lucas for Benayoun and go 4-5-1 at Chelsea) I'd play this team. That is our best team I think if everyone bar Aquilani is fit, once he is we can shift Gerrard back forward and have a look at him. My worry is too much of a dalliance with the likes of Lucas and Babel will see us out of it before it's even fecking started.

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