Liverpool FC Forum

by **tubby** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:30 pm

Anyone ever see that mini drama series with Harvy Keitel - The Path to 9/11? It was about an FBI agent John O'Neil and amongst other things showed his relationship with General Massoud. Great watch if you ever get the chance.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:34 pm

Number 9 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:The invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with saving the people of Afghanistan. There are far more evil regimes around the world, mainly in Africa, who are committing far greater atrocities against their own people. So saying the invasion was to help the Afghanistan people was pure propaganda.

Afghanistan is one of the strategic gates to the Middle East and Asia. Miles and miles of uninhabited land and a country that has no real rule means that any organised occupying forces can pretty much set up as they like. Having a base in Afghanistan is an excellent weapon for America and gives them great military control over the whole area and also allows them to influence oil distribution in the Middle East and thus the world. Having a base in Afghanistan makes America a real threat to the likes of Iran.

On top of this, invading Afghanistan was a way for Bush to wage war on Iraq, one of the major players in the oil game and also a country that had constantly defied America. But importantly it was also a way to appease the American people after September 11th.

Blair stood side by side with America for political reasons, I’m sure deep down inside he knew that the reasons for the invasions were morally wrong but he thought he was doing the best thing for Britain in the long run, which he was if you only look at it from a political and economic point of view. But at the end of the day he has to live with the fact that thousands and thousands of people have died thinking that the right thing was being done when in fact it was all just dirty politics.

It was a shambles from the beginning and now it is just a full-blown disaster. It is near impossible to eradicate the Taliban in Afghanistan. They are an unseen enemy in a confused and disorganised country.

Bush and Blair basically knew they were invading countries that they had no chance of controlling 100% or bringing democracy to. They also knew they would never have to pull out of either country and were happy to leave a PR disaster for whoever does.

People keep saying that they were not happy with the reasons for invading both countries but are happy we did. Well the whole thing was built on lies and immorality and that has resulted in thousands of people dead from all sides, 2 countries in complete disarray and no end in sight.

Dont agree with it all but good post!!

I dont see how seeing Afganistan as a gateway to the middle east and asia allows them to distribute oil?
We still get most of our oil off Russia..if it does not come directly from Russia it comes from breakaway countries formerly of the Soviet Union....ask Abromovich,he owns them all and their dogs practically!

I also dont think that anyone(even Bush) would have the audacity to compromise his relations with a whole continent for oil..I think the oil thing is a way out for someone that cant be bothered to think and would rather choose to go with the most obvious of all conspiracy theories!

I dont think it was about oil..I think it was about what is right..maybe I just have too much faith in fellow human beings though?

The Middle East hold between 50–60% of the world’s oil reserves, with Iraq having a reasonable chunk of it. Its’ a simple supply and demand equation. As the likes of Iraq and Iran hold so much of the worlds oil reserves they can manipulate the world price so it doesn’t matter were America and Britain get the oil from. Its one of the only things the Middle Eastern counties they have over America.

It’s funny that this topic has come up now as if I remember correctly some of the big oil companies are actually negotiating contracts right now to produce crude oil from Iraq's oilfields.

The invasions were definitely not all about oil, it was only a small part. It was also an ideological and military decision but the reasons were unlawful and plain wrong.

by **dawson99** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:38 pm

does it matter if the reasons are wrong if the outcome is just?

it may have been for the oil, but women and children were being stoned/beheaded/raped etc etc so who cares why we went in? The important thing is that we did go there to sort it out

by **aCe'** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:40 pm

Number 9 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:The invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with saving the people of Afghanistan. There are far more evil regimes around the world, mainly in Africa, who are committing far greater atrocities against their own people. So saying the invasion was to help the Afghanistan people was pure propaganda.

Afghanistan is one of the strategic gates to the Middle East and Asia. Miles and miles of uninhabited land and a country that has no real rule means that any organised occupying forces can pretty much set up as they like. Having a base in Afghanistan is an excellent weapon for America and gives them great military control over the whole area and also allows them to influence oil distribution in the Middle East and thus the world. Having a base in Afghanistan makes America a real threat to the likes of Iran.

On top of this, invading Afghanistan was a way for Bush to wage war on Iraq, one of the major players in the oil game and also a country that had constantly defied America. But importantly it was also a way to appease the American people after September 11th.

Blair stood side by side with America for political reasons, I’m sure deep down inside he knew that the reasons for the invasions were morally wrong but he thought he was doing the best thing for Britain in the long run, which he was if you only look at it from a political and economic point of view. But at the end of the day he has to live with the fact that thousands and thousands of people have died thinking that the right thing was being done when in fact it was all just dirty politics.

It was a shambles from the beginning and now it is just a full-blown disaster. It is near impossible to eradicate the Taliban in Afghanistan. They are an unseen enemy in a confused and disorganised country.

Bush and Blair basically knew they were invading countries that they had no chance of controlling 100% or bringing democracy to. They also knew they would never have to pull out of either country and were happy to leave a PR disaster for whoever does.

People keep saying that they were not happy with the reasons for invading both countries but are happy we did. Well the whole thing was built on lies and immorality and that has resulted in thousands of people dead from all sides, 2 countries in complete disarray and no end in sight.

Dont agree with it all but good post!!

I dont see how seeing Afganistan as a gateway to the middle east and asia allows them to distribute oil?
We still get most of our oil off Russia..if it does not come directly from Russia it comes from breakaway countries formerly of the Soviet Union....ask Abromovich,he owns them all and their dogs practically!

I also dont think that anyone(even Bush) would have the audacity to compromise his relations with a whole continent for oil..I think the oil thing is a way out for someone that cant be bothered to think and would rather choose to go with the most obvious of all conspiracy theories!

I dont think it was about oil..I think it was about what is right..maybe I just have too much faith in fellow human beings though?

good post cool hand and thats what i meant by geographic reasons.. pretty much the same with Iraq... Pakistan, Iran..etc...
Afghanistan IS a gateway when it comes to oil and gas distribution in the region and thus the world... dont think that was the main reason behind the invasion though... as you said, its importance in terms of setting up military bases in the region is unquestionable... allows the US a more hands on approach to different issue in the region.. especially when it comes to Iran and Pakistan who will soon be put under the spotlight if things dont change for the better... international stability (as ironic as this might sound) is what the US and its allies are after... defying the US is seen as terrorism nowadays and its a shame but its just how things are... Theres things that need changing in the world, no doubt, but im not sure the US and UK and allies are going about it the right way... take Iran for example... the US could have done to Iran what they've done to Iraq.. except they didnt because Iran is a much tougher nut to crack... Given time, Iran will selfrepair, except it would have come from within... people realizing (despite attempts of oppression) that things as they are dont work.. people as a collective arent satisfied, so they revolt against the system... sure the US can speed up the process by intervening but whos to say Iran and its people as a collective would have gotten to that stage where they have had enough when that happens ?! again, back to philosophical basis and how it dictates what goes about in a country..

Just as is with Iraq, not all Afghanis are against Taliban... most i think its safe to say would rather a democratic government be in control but then again its all about time... same with Iraq...

People expect things to change to the better overnight.. well its not going to happen.. Takes decades, maybe even generations to change the philosophical basis of a society...

If it does end up being a success (which i think it will, both in Iraq or Afghanistan), then i think all the efforts and lost lifes wouldnt have gone for nothing... doesnt matter what the real motives behind the 'invasion' or whatever you want to call it were, if there comes a time in the near future where Afghanis and Iraqis can live in peace, in a free, democratic society, it would be job done, and well done while at it imo...

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:43 pm

dawson99 wrote:does it matter if the reasons are wrong if the outcome is just?

it may have been for the oil, but women and children were being stoned/beheaded/raped etc etc so who cares why we went in? The important thing is that we did go there to sort it out

Is it sorted out? No. It will never be sorted out.

There are dozens of other countries were women are being stoned and rapped but we don’t really give a sh1t do we because the media don’t throw it in our faces.

The Taliban may not be in control of Afghanistan but they are alive and well. And the second that America and Britain pull out they will start gaining control again.

If you go there for the wrong reasons you will never get the right outcomes.

by **dawson99** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:45 pm

I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:48 pm

dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:52 pm

There is not a chance of winning a war with one arm tied behind your back. I really feel for the squaddies, any tiny indiscretion is probed, investigated and judged by a pussyfooting politically correct media and government. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of being there, in war, you can't win if you are fighting with a different set of rules.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:53 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:When the Taliban arrived in the village 10 months ago and drove the police out, local people rejoiced, said Mohammad Rasul, a toothless elderly farmer who keeps a few cows and chickens in a neatly tended orchard of pomegranate trees, figs and grape vines.

Although his own son was killed by a Taliban roadside bomb five years ago, Rasul said the fighters earned their welcome in the village by treating people with respect.

"We were happy (after the Taliban arrived). The Taliban never bothered us," he said.

full article

And you are studying law........?

what do you know about education?

Enough to ignore a silly little boy with a huge chip on his shoulder and something to prove!
Talk about the topic lad..we all know you have a great education..lets hear you put it into practice??

What are your views on the topic and questions posted?
Try talking about it without putting fairy lights all over yourself and seeking attention!

by **dawson99** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:56 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

No, I don;t buy it that saying it happens elsewhere is a reason not to go in. I'm also saying we should go into Africa and anywhere else it is happening.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:57 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:The invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with saving the people of Afghanistan. There are far more evil regimes around the world, mainly in Africa, who are committing far greater atrocities against their own people. So saying the invasion was to help the Afghanistan people was pure propaganda.

Afghanistan is one of the strategic gates to the Middle East and Asia. Miles and miles of uninhabited land and a country that has no real rule means that any organised occupying forces can pretty much set up as they like. Having a base in Afghanistan is an excellent weapon for America and gives them great military control over the whole area and also allows them to influence oil distribution in the Middle East and thus the world. Having a base in Afghanistan makes America a real threat to the likes of Iran.

On top of this, invading Afghanistan was a way for Bush to wage war on Iraq, one of the major players in the oil game and also a country that had constantly defied America. But importantly it was also a way to appease the American people after September 11th.

Blair stood side by side with America for political reasons, I’m sure deep down inside he knew that the reasons for the invasions were morally wrong but he thought he was doing the best thing for Britain in the long run, which he was if you only look at it from a political and economic point of view. But at the end of the day he has to live with the fact that thousands and thousands of people have died thinking that the right thing was being done when in fact it was all just dirty politics.

It was a shambles from the beginning and now it is just a full-blown disaster. It is near impossible to eradicate the Taliban in Afghanistan. They are an unseen enemy in a confused and disorganised country.

Bush and Blair basically knew they were invading countries that they had no chance of controlling 100% or bringing democracy to. They also knew they would never have to pull out of either country and were happy to leave a PR disaster for whoever does.

People keep saying that they were not happy with the reasons for invading both countries but are happy we did. Well the whole thing was built on lies and immorality and that has resulted in thousands of people dead from all sides, 2 countries in complete disarray and no end in sight.

Dont agree with it all but good post!!

I dont see how seeing Afganistan as a gateway to the middle east and asia allows them to distribute oil?
We still get most of our oil off Russia..if it does not come directly from Russia it comes from breakaway countries formerly of the Soviet Union....ask Abromovich,he owns them all and their dogs practically!

I also dont think that anyone(even Bush) would have the audacity to compromise his relations with a whole continent for oil..I think the oil thing is a way out for someone that cant be bothered to think and would rather choose to go with the most obvious of all conspiracy theories!

I dont think it was about oil..I think it was about what is right..maybe I just have too much faith in fellow human beings though?

The Middle East hold between 50–60% of the world’s oil reserves, with Iraq having a reasonable chunk of it. Its’ a simple supply and demand equation. As the likes of Iraq and Iran hold so much of the worlds oil reserves they can manipulate the world price so it doesn’t matter were America and Britain get the oil from. Its one of the only things the Middle Eastern counties they have over America.

It’s funny that this topic has come up now as if I remember correctly some of the big oil companies are actually negotiating contracts right now to produce crude oil from Iraq's oilfields.

The invasions were definitely not all about oil, it was only a small part. It was also an ideological and military decision but the reasons were unlawful and plain wrong.

Good points mate..I agree with most!
I do feel a little bit of bull creeping in,i really dont think americans WANT their sons to be there..I dont think it was an off the cuff reaction to 9/11 but it may have been a factor!!

Just a complex situation really and very sad!

by **aCe'** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:00 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:
dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

No, I don;t buy it that saying it happens elsewhere is a reason not to go in. I'm also saying we should go into Africa and anywhere else it is happening.

what the fck are you on about :wwww

dawson you need to get laid mate... asap

by **dawson99** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:03 pm

aCe' wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:
dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

No, I don;t buy it that saying it happens elsewhere is a reason not to go in. I'm also saying we should go into Africa and anywhere else it is happening.

what the fck are you on about

dawson you need to get laid mate... asap

Eh? All I'm saying is we need to go around the world, kicking a$$

and yeah, I could use some squishy fun

by **aCe'** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:08 pm

dawson99 wrote:
aCe' wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:
dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

No, I don;t buy it that saying it happens elsewhere is a reason not to go in. I'm also saying we should go into Africa and anywhere else it is happening.

what the fck are you on about

dawson you need to get laid mate... asap

Eh? All I'm saying is we need to go around the world, kicking a$$

and yeah, I could use some squishy fun

yea... take out your AK47 and chase after her calling her Robert Mugabe... that would be your contribution to the international society.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:24 pm

aCe' wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
aCe' wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:
dawson99 wrote:I don't buy that: its happening elsewhere. then lets go there as well, we need to start kicking some a$$ and show some of these people that it's the 21st century, and its not ok to rape kill and stone women and children...

just my views. i try to over simplify things

You don’t buy the fact that women are being raped every day in Africa by the countries military and political rebels?

No, I don;t buy it that saying it happens elsewhere is a reason not to go in. I'm also saying we should go into Africa and anywhere else it is happening.

what the fck are you on about

dawson you need to get laid mate... asap

Eh? All I'm saying is we need to go around the world, kicking a$$

and yeah, I could use some squishy fun

yea... take out your AK47 and chase after her calling her Robert Mugabe... that would be your contribution to the international society.

I dont think you need to take Dawson so literally mate!

Have you not found that after a while on here you get to know peoples ways??

I do..some i can understand totally,others may need a bit of work..I really dont think there are any bad people on here though!
(apart from Judge)

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