Liverpool FC Forum

by **SuppleMonkey** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:48 am

Question: how do you put those little pictures in the top left corner under you're username?

by **Zidane** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:03 am

Late response but this is old news, already been discussed and no point in bringing it up now imo. I hated the decision but I've gotten on with it. Rafa has done exceedingly well to not cut our title challenge to pieces and scoring goals hasn't been a huge problem since Keane left except for the first couple of games without him I think? but we didn't lose too much ground then. Not as upset about it now as I was when it happened so eh, don't really care to discuss it much.

by **fivecups** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:44 am

Igor Zidane wrote:Sack rafa , he's to defensive . No no no sack him cos we are to attacking and leaking all those goals . No i say sack him cos he fecked up on keane . No sack him cos we are a more settled side now keane has gone . Still challenging for the title at the end of april , it's a discrace i tell yer . THe league should have been won by now ,i mean all those sh!tty draws and them two massive losses in the league . Doesn't matter if we won a possible 14 out of 18 against our main title rivals , we should have 38 wins on the bounce . No excuses . SACK THE FAT SPANISH WAITER. CLUELESS HE IS .

Soz i'm in my ultra rose tinted mode , Rafa can't be critisized he is the all seeing all knowing man of the people who can't do a thing wrong
Thought i'd get that in before the pessamists have a go .

No need for the sarcasm on here, thanks very much.

He's a chump, he's ridiculous, he's silly, he's a disgrace, he's stubborn, he's arrogant, he's more interested in Rafa than in Liverpool, he's manufacturing a move to Madrid, he's an attention seeker, he's Houllier, he's gone over his five year plan (??), he's fat, he's foreign, he doesn't want to win a match (he plays for the draw), he's a control freak, he can't play mind games.

Rafa Out! Rafa Out! Rafa Out!

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:19 am

SuppleMonkey wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:My biggest problem though still remains with the 60+ sub thing. There have been times when I and others have been screaming out for a change to be made and there's none forth coming until the usual mark. What's wrong with a change on 30 minutes, or at half time?

I just don't get that.

Still though, as you say. There's not a lot of choice.

Oh, I see now...you were thinking the subs were made too late rather than too early...my bad.

In that case, I still disagree but for a different reason. I'm personally not a fan of a first-half tactical substitution unless things are going horribly wrong and I cannot think of a moment where that situation applied to us in the first half of a game this season. I can think of games where we made stupid mistakes or looked a yard off the required pace but I can't think of one where we needed a complete tactical re-think. That, IMO, has a lot to do with Rafa's tactical acumen. Say what you will about his cautious nature but he rarely sets us up in a way that sees us radically outmaneuvred.

So, the only other reason to make an early tactical switch is if an individual player is having an absolute 'mare. Again, I can think of several sub-par performances in first halves this season but none that required a player to be hauled off so early. Most of the lads know what's expected of them and put in a solid shift.

Once you get through the first half, you have the half-time interval to make tactical adjustments or to light a fire under an underperformer's a.rse. As such, I don't really see much need for half-time substitutions either. Get them in the locker room, get it clear where they need to improve, get them gee'd up for the restart and then give them another 10-15 minutes to see if they'll turn things around. That's just smart management, IMO.

This is one of the reasons why I rarely log into the match thread during the game (besides the obvious reason that I'm watching the game on telly at the time)--I find that people are often FAR too impatient with the lads and with Rafa when things aren't quite going as planned. Comments like "get him off, Rafa, FFS" or "we need a triple switch at half time" are bandied about with gay abandon, even if we're playing well and have just not grabbed a goal yet. More often than not, though, patience pays off and we get the breakthrough we want after the interval and certain impatient types end up looking a little foolish. I often think too many people conclude it's not working too early and expect Rafa to shake things up prematurely. And for what? As we've just agreed, the choices he often has on the bench are not of the same calibre as the lads he has on the pitch so why on earth would we be in rush to get the substitutions in?

I don't see why you think half-time substitutions are not needed.

I am not going to slaughter Rafa because of his substitutions but I don't really understand why you think a half time sub is needed?

If we had a manager who did change things around at half time and in large we got a better result because of it in the second half would you still say they were needless?

I personally do feel Rafa's substitutions are a bit predictable at times and surely this would play into the hands of an oppossing manager. Who would have a damned good idea at what time the sub was going to be made and depending on the result, whether we need to stick or bust. It becomes much easier for an oppossing manager to counteract the sub made by Rafa.

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Rafa every now and again break up his predicatble rythmn of substituions. I am not having a pop at the manager as I do not believe this is a detrimental fact for a league challenge.

But if your at home to Stoke and it is nil nil at half time and your team has done everything except sticking the ball in the back of the net. A change could indeed be warranted for the second half, by and large we do struggle in breaking certain teams down bringing a player on 15 mins could be a vital factor on the impending result.

It is just food for thought and not a stick to beat Rafa with by and large I think he has improved along with the team this campaign.

It almost qualifies as semantics this topic, but none the less could be important.

I don't think we should dwell on it too much.

Well, the bottom line for me, mate, is the fact that, by and large, the players on the subs bench are usually a poorer option than the players on the pitch and so I'm never in a rush to change things around too soon. Say we're 0-0 at half time tomorrow with our best available line-up on the pitch. If I'm Rafa, am I going to roll the dice and throw Babel or Ngog on at half-time in place of Riera or Kuyt or Benayoun? Nah, thought not.

by **SuppleMonkey** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:59 am

Bad Bob wrote:
SuppleMonkey wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:My biggest problem though still remains with the 60+ sub thing. There have been times when I and others have been screaming out for a change to be made and there's none forth coming until the usual mark. What's wrong with a change on 30 minutes, or at half time?

I just don't get that.

Still though, as you say. There's not a lot of choice.

Oh, I see now...you were thinking the subs were made too late rather than too early...my bad.

In that case, I still disagree but for a different reason. I'm personally not a fan of a first-half tactical substitution unless things are going horribly wrong and I cannot think of a moment where that situation applied to us in the first half of a game this season. I can think of games where we made stupid mistakes or looked a yard off the required pace but I can't think of one where we needed a complete tactical re-think. That, IMO, has a lot to do with Rafa's tactical acumen. Say what you will about his cautious nature but he rarely sets us up in a way that sees us radically outmaneuvred.

So, the only other reason to make an early tactical switch is if an individual player is having an absolute 'mare. Again, I can think of several sub-par performances in first halves this season but none that required a player to be hauled off so early. Most of the lads know what's expected of them and put in a solid shift.

Once you get through the first half, you have the half-time interval to make tactical adjustments or to light a fire under an underperformer's a.rse. As such, I don't really see much need for half-time substitutions either. Get them in the locker room, get it clear where they need to improve, get them gee'd up for the restart and then give them another 10-15 minutes to see if they'll turn things around. That's just smart management, IMO.

This is one of the reasons why I rarely log into the match thread during the game (besides the obvious reason that I'm watching the game on telly at the time)--I find that people are often FAR too impatient with the lads and with Rafa when things aren't quite going as planned. Comments like "get him off, Rafa, FFS" or "we need a triple switch at half time" are bandied about with gay abandon, even if we're playing well and have just not grabbed a goal yet. More often than not, though, patience pays off and we get the breakthrough we want after the interval and certain impatient types end up looking a little foolish. I often think too many people conclude it's not working too early and expect Rafa to shake things up prematurely. And for what? As we've just agreed, the choices he often has on the bench are not of the same calibre as the lads he has on the pitch so why on earth would we be in rush to get the substitutions in?

I don't see why you think half-time substitutions are not needed.

I am not going to slaughter Rafa because of his substitutions but I don't really understand why you think a half time sub is needed?

If we had a manager who did change things around at half time and in large we got a better result because of it in the second half would you still say they were needless?

I personally do feel Rafa's substitutions are a bit predictable at times and surely this would play into the hands of an oppossing manager. Who would have a damned good idea at what time the sub was going to be made and depending on the result, whether we need to stick or bust. It becomes much easier for an oppossing manager to counteract the sub made by Rafa.

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Rafa every now and again break up his predicatble rythmn of substituions. I am not having a pop at the manager as I do not believe this is a detrimental fact for a league challenge.

But if your at home to Stoke and it is nil nil at half time and your team has done everything except sticking the ball in the back of the net. A change could indeed be warranted for the second half, by and large we do struggle in breaking certain teams down bringing a player on 15 mins could be a vital factor on the impending result.

It is just food for thought and not a stick to beat Rafa with by and large I think he has improved along with the team this campaign.

It almost qualifies as semantics this topic, but none the less could be important.

I don't think we should dwell on it too much.

Well, the bottom line for me, mate, is the fact that, by and large, the players on the subs bench are usually a poorer option than the players on the pitch and so I'm never in a rush to change things around too soon. Say we're 0-0 at half time tomorrow with our best available line-up on the pitch. If I'm Rafa, am I going to roll the dice and throw Babel or Ngog on at half-time in place of Riera or Kuyt or Benayoun? Nah, thought not.

True.

So then do we move on to question the managers acquisitions in the transfer market if the likes of Babel and N'Gog are not worth bringing on at half time?

by **bigmick** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:16 am

fivecups wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Sack rafa , he's to defensive . No no no sack him cos we are to attacking and leaking all those goals . No i say sack him cos he fecked up on keane . No sack him cos we are a more settled side now keane has gone . Still challenging for the title at the end of april , it's a discrace i tell yer . THe league should have been won by now ,i mean all those sh!tty draws and them two massive losses in the league . Doesn't matter if we won a possible 14 out of 18 against our main title rivals , we should have 38 wins on the bounce . No excuses . SACK THE FAT SPANISH WAITER. CLUELESS HE IS .

Soz i'm in my ultra rose tinted mode , Rafa can't be critisized he is the all seeing all knowing man of the people who can't do a thing wrong
Thought i'd get that in before the pessamists have a go .

No need for the sarcasm on here, thanks very much.

He's a chump, he's ridiculous, he's silly, he's a disgrace, he's stubborn, he's arrogant, he's more interested in Rafa than in Liverpool, he's manufacturing a move to Madrid, he's an attention seeker, he's Houllier, he's gone over his five year plan (??), he's fat, he's foreign, he doesn't want to win a match (he plays for the draw), he's a control freak, he can't play mind games.

Rafa Out! Rafa Out! Rafa Out!

I guess the sarcasm and self congratulatory backslaps are inevitable as the team is playing well, but the little jibes don't really give a true picture.

Earlier this season I said I wanted a managerial change, and in truth I've probably felt in my heart of hearts that we needed a change of manager for some time. You see, I wanted a manager who didn't mass rotate from game one, and torpedo any chances we had of getting some momentum going in the league, putting us out of it before the thing had even started.

I wanted a manager who attacked more, who understood the stark reality that winning lots of matches, more than anyone else wins you the Premiership. Losing less than everyone else doesn't necessarily mean the same. I wanted a manager who understood the mantra that he who dares wins.

I wanted a manager who didn't constantly talk about "options" and "possibilites", but who gave the team the opportunity to flourish.

I also wanted a manager who wouldn't spunk 40 million quid then blame the calamity on somebody else.

I didn't get all my wishes, but I got all apart from one. Unbelieveably, I got them with the same manager. I've said many times if Rafa were to leave, somebody new would come in, play a settled team, hunt down wins, win a few trophies and the name Benitez would soon be forgotten. Thankfully, the manager has decided to give it a go himself and it's lovely to see.

There is still some convincing left to be done as far as I'm concerned, and if we don't win the Premiership nobody will ever convince me that we haven't wasted a fantastic opportunity where all the cards fell our way. If we don't win it that'll be three seasons without a trophy, which is hardly a record to be getting the bunting out about regardless of how many excuses people can dream up or how much they slap themselves on the back. We've spent huge amounts of money, have had the services of Steven Gerrard for free and haven't won a thing for too long if we don't win the Premiership this time.

That said, we are finally, belatedly showing signs of grasping some fundamental realites. Nobody could be happier than me about Rafa's recent approach, but we're not quite into back-slapping territory just yet I don't think.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:37 am

Complete bolocks.

We've afveraged 4 goals per game in the last 6 games, plus we are the highest scoring team in all competitions. Lock the thread. It's a load of w@nk.

by **yolz** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:11 am

It's that time of the year where on hindsight, we're all sages
There's only 5 more games to go and I honestly hope for a miracle that Manucs slip up 2 games
We've had some fantastic results gone our way so far, let's hope lady luck continues to smile on us
Anyway, the decision to sell Keane was a decision that Rafa made, whether it was right or wrong remains to be seen
The tactics, transfers and managing of the team is under the direct control of Rafa
Given the time he has had, I think he doesn't deserve the accolades he gets
What all this differing opinions(and really heated ones too!) on Keanegate proves is that
deep in our hearts, we know that Rafa hasn't really built a stable team yet
We're still relying too much on the Torres-Gerrard partnership
So that's my main point, whether he made the right decision or not in buying/selling Keane,
I don't really care, but he better start building a stable team soon

by **heimdall** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:05 am

Emerald Red wrote:Complete bolocks.

We've afveraged 4 goals per game in the last 6 games, plus we are the highest scoring team in all competitions. Lock the thread. It's a load of w@nk.

Good contribution as always Emerald, if I compare your posts to Big Micks then it's clear who actually took some time to think of a reasoned argument before starting to type.

by **Sabre** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:08 am

Edit. Non footie.

by **Ciggy** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:11 am

I am glad we sold Keane it was the best move rafa made by selling him, one of the worst moves he made bringing him here in the first place. Just before he signed i knew for a fact it wouldnt work out and it didnt, like Bellamy, Pennant etc.

Its no coincidence since he has gone our performances have been brilliant instead of the Robbie Keane roadshow.

I like Keane dont get me wrong he is a good player but didnt have the right mentality to play for the biggest club in the world.

by **Homebooby** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:29 am

bigmick wrote:Gonna swim against the tide a bit here but I can't see anything wrong with what Heimdall posted. The topic starter asked a question, and Heimdall gave an opinion. Quite a lot of what he said I agree with, as I thought Keanegate was the main reason we will probably not win the title this season, but that is by the by.

I live in hope that one day people will accept everyone has a right to an opinion, and as it's a discussion forum, provided it's not offensive surely they are allowed to voice it?

Many people have already stated that selling keane was a masterstroke. I disagree with this, but where they come from is irrelevent, and i fully accept their right to hold such an opinion.

Well said.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:02 am

bigmick wrote:
fivecups wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Sack rafa , he's to defensive . No no no sack him cos we are to attacking and leaking all those goals . No i say sack him cos he fecked up on keane . No sack him cos we are a more settled side now keane has gone . Still challenging for the title at the end of april , it's a discrace i tell yer . THe league should have been won by now ,i mean all those sh!tty draws and them two massive losses in the league . Doesn't matter if we won a possible 14 out of 18 against our main title rivals , we should have 38 wins on the bounce . No excuses . SACK THE FAT SPANISH WAITER. CLUELESS HE IS .

Soz i'm in my ultra rose tinted mode , Rafa can't be critisized he is the all seeing all knowing man of the people who can't do a thing wrong
Thought i'd get that in before the pessamists have a go .

No need for the sarcasm on here, thanks very much.

He's a chump, he's ridiculous, he's silly, he's a disgrace, he's stubborn, he's arrogant, he's more interested in Rafa than in Liverpool, he's manufacturing a move to Madrid, he's an attention seeker, he's Houllier, he's gone over his five year plan (??), he's fat, he's foreign, he doesn't want to win a match (he plays for the draw), he's a control freak, he can't play mind games.

Rafa Out! Rafa Out! Rafa Out!

I guess the sarcasm and self congratulatory backslaps are inevitable as the team is playing well, but the little jibes don't really give a true picture.

Earlier this season I said I wanted a managerial change, and in truth I've probably felt in my heart of hearts that we needed a change of manager for some time. You see, I wanted a manager who didn't mass rotate from game one, and torpedo any chances we had of getting some momentum going in the league, putting us out of it before the thing had even started.

I wanted a manager who attacked more, who understood the stark reality that winning lots of matches, more than anyone else wins you the Premiership. Losing less than everyone else doesn't necessarily mean the same. I wanted a manager who understood the mantra that he who dares wins.

I wanted a manager who didn't constantly talk about "options" and "possibilites", but who gave the team the opportunity to flourish.

I also wanted a manager who wouldn't spunk 40 million quid then blame the calamity on somebody else.

I didn't get all my wishes, but I got all apart from one. Unbelieveably, I got them with the same manager. I've said many times if Rafa were to leave, somebody new would come in, play a settled team, hunt down wins, win a few trophies and the name Benitez would soon be forgotten. Thankfully, the manager has decided to give it a go himself and it's lovely to see.

There is still some convincing left to be done as far as I'm concerned, and if we don't win the Premiership nobody will ever convince me that we haven't wasted a fantastic opportunity where all the cards fell our way. If we don't win it that'll be three seasons without a trophy, which is hardly a record to be getting the bunting out about regardless of how many excuses people can dream up or how much they slap themselves on the back. We've spent huge amounts of money, have had the services of Steven Gerrard for free and haven't won a thing for too long if we don't win the Premiership this time.

That said, we are finally, belatedly showing signs of grasping some fundamental realites. Nobody could be happier than me about Rafa's recent approach, but we're not quite into back-slapping territory just yet I don't think.

It's a good job that you were wrong to want him out then isn't it mick . My post wasn't backslapping in the slightest . As you well know i've been pretty consistant in my pro rafa stance and i can safely say that the majority of supporters i know are the same. Questions and puzzled at times ,defo , p!ssed off with some of our play ,again defo . Wanting the manager sacked . No way ,not a chance , not in a million years. Wether you like it or not Rafa has loyalty and backing of the majority of fans (match goers or not ) , i think he is the man and i think this season we will do it . If we don't i'm going to be there shouting and screaming next season to do it then .

So basically what you are saying is that Rafa has come round to your way of thinking ,so your happy with that and your happy not to sack him . What if we lose every game from now until the end of the season ? What then?

by **fivecups** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:09 pm

I was lamped last night when I wrote that.

I don't mind people having anti-Rafa views and I've said many times that he's been far from perfect. But, I think as the manager of our club he should always be discussed with respect and some of the comments on here a while ago were far from respectful.

I think his management approach is evolving (for the better) but he hasn't suddenly changed into a completely different manager. I said before that a bit of tweaking was what we needed rather than a new man at the helm, a complete overhaul of the squad, the formation and another few years of bedding in. I think that's what we are seeing - a slight tweak towards more attacking football - and the benefits are clear.

by **Sabre** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:36 pm

I have similar views to those of fivecups, and I think he was using sarcasm not against who had criticism to the manager, but to the people who went too far with the criticism, the waiter and so on.

This season there has been a tendency to more attacking game. But all the season, not as of late. You have seen Alonso shooting more, you are seeing Mascherano shooting frequently this season too!

Chelsea and Arsenal games were different, those were gung ho because the game required it, but I'd say there has been all the season a more attacking approach.

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