Liverpool FC Forum

by **sgs** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:23 pm

MAN UTD V LIVERPOOL
A nice problem to have
By Norman Hubbard

''I'm leaving out great players all the time,'' complained Sir Alex Ferguson last Saturday as he reflected on the embarrassment of riches at his disposal. Tellingly in the current title race this is not a problem often cited by Rafa Benitez, except when injury forces him to name Steven Gerrard or Fernando Torres as benchwarmers.

What side would Ferguson or Benitez pick if they could combine their squads

So, if we forced Ferguson to omit more high-calibre players, what would a team look like if, instead of facing one another on Saturday, Liverpool and Manchester United pooled their personnel? And do the results indicate, as is often stated, that there is strength in depth at Old Trafford, but not at Anfield?

This hypothetical process was conducted under the assumption everyone is fit, and with a second 11 selected to further test the clubs' respective resources. Had the sole criterion for selection been their performance against Real Madrid, it could have been a clean sweep for Liverpool; given United's dominance of the season, there is a case for 11 men from Manchester. A combined XI has neither, however.

We'll start off with a shock. Edwin van der Sar may have spent the last few months amassing records, but by virtue of being busier Jose Reina has saved more shots and more points than the Dutchman and so wins this goalkeeping vote.

Despite Reina's selection United's impeccable defending does deserve recognition, and it is only right they contribute the majority of the back four.

Left-back is Liverpool's problem position, so Patrice Evra is a shoo-in. Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic represent the outstanding central defensive partnership in the Premier League and have the benefit of complementing one another. The Englishman's anticipation and reading of the game enables him to provide the sleeker sidekick to the more aggressive Serb. There is little logic in disrupting such an effective alliance.

But Jamie Carragher can be accommodated. It may be a slight to the specialists, and it is public knowledge that it is not his favourite role, but Liverpool's vice-captain is an excellent right-back. He is underrated as an attacking force and it means Anfield's answer to Vidic is also available to provide his brand of no-holds-barred defending.

If the right winger is perhaps the simplest selection - a certain Portuguese - the centre of midfield may be the toughest. The commanding performances Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano produced in the Bernabeu mean there is a case for choosing them as a pair; equally, the same could be said for Ryan Giggs and Darren Fletcher after their displays against Chelsea. Michael Carrick may have had the finest season of any of the candidates, but Gerrard's best surpasses anyone else's.

Any duo involves an element of compromise, but Gerrard can be picked in his preferred position in the centre of midfield with a more defensive accomplice. The tireless Mascherano is ideal, while Giggs is the choice on the left. He may rarely play there now, but Evra's overlapping style means the Welshman could effectively operate as a third central midfielder and permit Gerrard to roam.

Deploying him in midfield renders it easier to select a forward line. Even given the competition for places, Gerrard's usual ally in attack is an automatic pick: Torres' speed, sharpness and potency means he plays.

There is a three-way contest to partner him, with the candidates comprising United's strike force. Wayne Rooney edges out Dimitar Berbatov and Carlos Tevez, partly for his greater versatility. Although it is a side selected in a 4-4-2 formation, they could just as easily play 4-2-3-1, with Gerrard operating behind Torres, and flanked by Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo.

So there are three Liverpudlians and, excluding Giggs on the basis of his birth in Cardiff, no Mancunians. Nevertheless, this side contains a majority - just - for Ferguson and a minority of Benitez's charges. It suggests a marginal advantage for Manchester United.

The second XI, however, does indicate United possess a far greater pool of talent. With only three Liverpool players - Martin Skrtel, Xabi Alonso and Dirk Kuyt - it is dominated by United and includes some men who are only understudies at Old Trafford. There were some close calls - particularly the choice between Rafael da Silva and Alvaro Arbeloa at right-back - but it points to United's genuine strength in depth.

It also helps illustrate why Liverpool, with a relatively small group of high-class performers, are capable of outstanding results but unable to sustain the consistency to win the title, whereas United are better equipped to cope with the absences of their premier players. And if that does not support Ferguson's statement that he is leaving out great players, he is certainly omitting very good ones on a regular basis. Benitez has no such luxury.

The first XI: Jose Reina; Jamie Carragher, Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic, Patrice Evra; Cristiano Ronaldo, Steven Gerrard, Javier Mascherano, Ryan Giggs; Wayne Rooney; Fernando Torres. (Manchester United 6, Liverpool 5)

The second XI: Edwin van der Sar; Rafael da Silva, Martin Skrtel, Jonny Evans, John O'Shea; Dirk Kuyt, Michael Carrick, Xabi Alonso, Ji-sung Park; Carlos Tevez, Dimitar Berbatov. (Manchester United 8, Liverpool 3)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns....cc=5901

by **sgs** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:25 pm

I thought this was as succint as possible in describing clearly where we come up short vs the Manc...In any competitive team sport you assess yourself according to the best standards in the game, and in the PL currently, it is the Mancs.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:30 pm

O'shea over Aurelio? Park over Riera? Raphael will probably reach higher heights than Arbeloa, but is he really better right now?

by **Flight** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:38 pm

sgs wrote:The first XI: Jose Reina; Jamie Carragher, Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic, Patrice Evra; Cristiano Ronaldo, Steven Gerrard, Javier Mascherano, Ryan Giggs; Wayne Rooney; Fernando Torres. (Manchester United 6, Liverpool 5)

Interesting thought - if Parry wasn't such an incompetent twunt Ronaldo and Vidic would be playing for us and that first XI would read Mancs 4 LFC 7 !!!!!!!!! :veryangry

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:54 pm

Parry had nothing to do with Vidic and Ronlado not coming to us - lets not blame parry for everything .

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:07 pm

GYBS wrote:Parry had nothing to do with Vidic and Ronlado not coming to us - lets not blame parry for everything .

Fair play

by **RedRoots** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:43 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong but was it not Thommo's fault we never bought Ronaldo?

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:05 pm

no it wasnt thommos fault neither . Ronaldo was offered to liverpool at a cheap price and while thommo and GH were thinking it over and deciding they saw on skysports that he had signed for man utd for more than 8 million that he was offered to Liverpool so Thommo phoned up his agent and asked wtf is going on and the agent said that man utd just acted quickly and had the deal done in a matter of hours before liverpool could move . so it wasnt parrys fault and it wasnt thommos fault

by **Flight** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:07 pm

GYBS wrote:Parry had nothing to do with Vidic and Ronlado not coming to us - lets not blame parry for everything .

You're not disagreeing with me over Ronaldo, its in Houlliers autobiography. We had a £6mill deal agreed, Parry took a couple of weeks tieing it up, the Mancs came in with £12mill and tied it up within 24 hours.

Houllier and Thommo thought we'd signed him; they found out we hadn't when they saw on the telly that the Mancs had.

Vidic was the same. Vidic had a buy out price, we bid it, for whatever reason it went a couple of weeks and Parry didn't tie it up, the Mancs came in and snatched him.

Here's a post you may or may not have read from another forum from someone who has worked closely with Parry over the last ten years. Parry leaving is the best thing that has happened in the last two decades.

[spoiler]

Quote from: shanklyboy on January 17, 2009, 02:06:19 AM
I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated 30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benítez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.

The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.

The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.

Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.

Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benítez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benítez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benítez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benítez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benítez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benítez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benítez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.

Benítez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.

He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benítez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benítez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benítez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.

I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benítez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benítez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benítez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benítez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benítez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.

As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image. [/spoiler][B]

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:10 pm

Flight wrote:
GYBS wrote:Parry had nothing to do with Vidic and Ronlado not coming to us - lets not blame parry for everything .

You're not disagreeing with me over Ronaldo, its in Houlliers autobiography. We had a £6mill deal agreed, Parry took a couple of weeks tieing it up, the Mancs came in with £12mill and tied it up within 24 hours.

Houllier and Thommo thought we'd signed him; they found out we hadn't when they saw on the telly that the Mancs had.

Vidic was the same. Vidic had a buy out price, we bid it, for whatever reason it went a couple of weeks and Parry didn't tie it up, the Mancs came in and snatched him.

Here's a post you may or may not have read from another forum from someone who has worked closely with Parry over the last ten years. Parry leaving is the best thing that has happened in the last two decades.

[spoiler]

Quote from: shanklyboy on January 17, 2009, 02:06:19 AM
I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated 30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benítez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.

The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.

The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.

Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.

Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benítez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benítez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benítez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benítez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benítez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benítez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benítez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.

Benítez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.

He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benítez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benítez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benítez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.

I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benítez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benítez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benítez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benítez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benítez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.

As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image. [/spoiler]

Read Thommos book then cause he gives a different story and it was GH who was a bit unsure about wether to get him or not and him not coming was feck all to do with parry .

As for Vidic we bid the asking price the club accepted the higher bid from man utd . just like they did with silvestre.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:21 pm

And if people are willing to critise Parry so easily for things then he should be praised for bringing players like torres pepe and xabi and masher to the club .

by **Flight** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:33 pm

GYBS wrote:As for Vidic we bid the asking price the club accepted the higher bid from man utd . just like they did with silvestre.

Vidic had a buy out price mate; they had to accept our bid. And it was a good two weeks later the Mancs came in and they didn't bid higher - they didn't need to.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:03 pm

if they didnt bid higher how did they manage to get him for higher than the asking price then ?

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:11 pm

I think often people are underestimating the pulling power of a club like man Utd, and I have to say a manager like Ferguson. Whatever you say about him, he is charismatic and it's quite possible not everyone who is looking to sign takes to Rafa's by all accounts somewhat more stand-offish approach. Equally, it's quite possible that going forward one or two players will have taken note of the revolving door, as well as the way players such as Keane were treated and will think twice if they have alternative options.

by **RedBlood** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:15 pm

if we had better invest evra and ferdinand would be our players too houlier wanted them both but couldnt afford them

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