Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:23 pm

All this cr@p about "hating Rafa" is silly. The only thing most people hate is the mancs being top of the league.

I certainly don't hate Rafa, but I do question whether he is getting the best out of the squad, whether he is doing as good a job as he should in the transfer market, and whether a change of manager might be the solution to a lot of the problems we seem to be having both on and off the pitch.

Yes we have "problem owners", but if we get new ones, does anyone seriously think that all our problems will disappear ? I certainly don't. We will still have strange buys, strange formations and selections. Robotic substitutions rather than inspired ones, and a team that is methodical and functional but lacking in creativity.

Hate Rafa, no. Think we may do better under different leadership....... yes.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:44 pm

GYBS wrote:it makes you wonder how the hell rafa has managed what he has while with us in the 4 years - which is more succesful than evans souness and gh in the league and the cl.

We've qualified for the Champions League by finishing 5th, 3rd, 3rd and 4th under Rafa, not something Houllier, Evans or Souness had the chance to - well Houllier did, but Rafa was in charge for the CL campaign.

And in the league Houllier managed 2nd, Evans managed 3rd twice and 4th twice. Maybe not with as many points or points per game, but the league has changed. You can't say for sure Evans or Houllier wouldn't have managed the same as Rafa, maybe not the Champions League win which it's hard to convince anyone they would have won.

So not nearly as clearly "more successful" than many claim.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:45 pm

s@int wrote:All this cr@p about "hating Rafa" is silly. The only thing most people hate is the mancs being top of the league.

I certainly don't hate Rafa, but I do question whether he is getting the best out of the squad, whether he is doing as good a job as he should in the transfer market, and whether a change of manager might be the solution to a lot of the problems we seem to be having both on and off the pitch.

The "hating Rafa" isn't silly, it's a way the believers have of making the rest of us out to be less of fans. They're "loyal", we "hate" Rafa or are "disloyal". We just base our judgements on facts, results and where we should be rather than with ideals about how "it isn't over until it's mathematically impossible" kind of talk and how Rafa can do what fergie did if we give him long enough.

The thing is we give evidence as to why he probably won't win the league, I'll never say never, but it's dismissed because Rafa is perceived as "closer" to the title in some way even though he isn't. He may score five points more per season than other managers (that isn't a stat by the way, just a hypothetical figure), but times have changed and so has the transfer market. Cisse, Diouf and Heskey were our record signings, now we've signed three players more expensive - not far off double the cost.

s@int wrote:Yes we have "problem owners", but if we get new ones, does anyone seriously think that all our problems will disappear ? I certainly don't. We will still have strange buys, strange formations and selections. Robotic substitutions rather than inspired ones, and a team that is methodical and functional but lacking in creativity.

Nobody complains at the "problem owners" for giving Rafa £40m+ to spend on players, or for giving us funds higher than previously made available to sign Torres, Keane and Mascherano. They're easy targets like Parry to blame, but we should be beating Fulham, Stoke and West Ham at home whether we have our 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 99th choice players when our squad cost many times more than their's. New owners may be better, may be worse. I'm not suggesting Rafa is as clueless as Hughes seems, but you do have to wonder if the only way Rafa can win the league is if he has a team so good it could manage itself

s@int wrote:Hate Rafa, no. Think we may do better under different leadership....... yes.

May be better, may be worse under new leadership. But the crunch questions are

- do we want the Premiership above all else?
- can Rafa get us the Premiership?

Unfortunately I can only say yes to the first, we keep going through managers until we find one who can win the league since we should never settle for second best. We've been struggling to be even second best for the whole of the Premiership.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:46 pm

i cant believe i just read at least 2 pages of sh!t from gybs and LegBarnes. i dont understand why u wanna bother, LB. you know he is a WUM and loves to argue. just skip it.

by **GYBS** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:03 pm

max if you havent got anything more worthwhile than to insult me suggest you just keep it quiet and stick to your riddles while the grown ups talk football .

by **Madmax** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:18 pm

GYBS wrote:you just keep it quiet and stick to your riddles

have to say that made my day.. GYBS max is a good fella probably just having a bad day mate..

by **zarababe** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:37 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:i cant believe i just read at least 2 pages of sh!t from gybs and LegBarnes. i dont understand why u wanna bother, LB. you know he is a WUM and loves to argue. just skip it.

believe it ... legbarnes thinks Beardesly and Barnes were better footballers then Maradonna :Oo:

says it all really !

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:05 pm

Madmax wrote:
GYBS wrote:you just keep it quiet and stick to your riddles

have to say that made my day.. GYBS max is a good fella probably just having a bad day mate..

Jeez you fecking Max's always stick together dontcha ? :angry:

by **Madmax** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:26 pm

bigmick wrote:
Madmax wrote:
GYBS wrote:you just keep it quiet and stick to your riddles

have to say that made my day.. GYBS max is a good fella probably just having a bad day mate..

Jeez you fecking Max's always stick together dontcha ?

liverpudlian fanhood...

by **boodiddy1** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:08 pm

All that nonesance last night about spending since 2004 really :censored:

me off. What rafa has spent compared to fergie, chelski etc. RAfa has only spent about 90m net. chelsea about 220m net, spurs 200m net.

Why do sky try and always put a spin on us and love fergie etc.

Read tomkins on .tv and you'll see, it bugs the :censored:

out of me.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG163483090304-1429.htm

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:11 pm

boodiddy1 wrote:All that nonesance last night about spending since 2004 really me off. What rafa has spent compared to fergie, chelski etc. RAfa has only spent about 90m net. chelsea about 220m net, spurs 200m net.

Why do sky try and always put a spin on us and love fergie etc.

Read tomkins on .tv and you'll see, it bugs the out of me.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG163483090304-1429.htm

Apparantly not true mate on the net spend. The figures have been put up many times by different people, and I'm sure someone will again. It's much much closer in net spend than you are indicating by all accounts, only about 3 mill difference per season between us and Chelsea I think.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:39 am

Net spend is only about 3 mil difference between us and chelsea ? is that right ? Seems way out to me considering the amount of money the have forked out especially in the early stages of the Russians Reign.

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:12 am

GYBS wrote:Net spend is only about 3 mil difference between us and chelsea ? is that right ? Seems way out to me considering the amount of money the have forked out especially in the early stages of the Russians Reign.

I think so mate during Rafa's time yes. I'm only quoting from memory of when the stats got posted up though, so I might be wrong (but I don't think I am). As I understand it the gap has closed up over the last 18 months or so when we've spent very heavily.

Like most thigs which are often used as defence mechanism's against people like me who've "lost faith", when you really go into them the arguments don't really stand up. It's a little bit like the argument that we've "progressed", when you really look at it we haven't really bu very much.

It's probably easier for people like yourself who believe in/back the manager 100% to just say you have a feeling that he'll eventually do the business. That's fair enough, I've no argument with that stance at all. It's a bit like a footballer, sometimes you just look at one and get a hunch he might make something of himself, even though you haven't got that much to go on.

Making a decent case for Rafa being given a new contract though is far easier if you don't go into his record and his achievements/transfer dealings too closely. If you make a case along the lines of we are a better team than when he took over (we are) and we are finishing closer to the eventual winners of the Premiership whoever they may be than we did in the season before he took over (we are) and that we are a much better team in Europe (we are) then you're on fairly safe ground I think. If you top it off with "my gut feeling is....." then nobody can have a beef with that surely.

It's just when you start getting into the nitty gritty, which I'm surprised that (if I might use the term here) "pro's" are so keen to do, that it starts to get a bit sticky. If I was a "in Rafa I trust"er I would just stick with the "well I think he'll do it so there you go" angle, rather than getting too bogged down in numbers and stuff. If you believe in him, you believe in him and the fact we've spent lots of cash is neither here nor there.

by **club_Levis** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:17 am

jedwards wrote:
Benitez has been talking so much about his beloved squad ( many average players), on how good it is, that to enable him to overcome the challenge from top clubs, to win the league! A squad that it is so strong in depth and competitive in all departments, that it had cost hundreds of Million pounds, large in number, big wage bills, BUT it hardly used up to its full capacity, and above all it does not depends on any particular player to carry it forward!! as always Benitez claims!, furthermore, he was not worried at all for the sell of Keane, because he has top replacements strikers to do a better job than Keane!!.

Well now we are hearing the main reason for losing top spot, it simply down to absence of Torres!!!!!!!!.

Any decent above average manager would have made arrangement for pre-season plans to have enough decent strikers to cover his NO.1 striker in case of injuries. Not in case of the clever Benitez. In summer, he went and sold Crouch, and in Mid-season he went and sold Crouch replacement in Keane. Now the whole team and the club are paying for his stupid mistakes and bad style of management, which it has deprived the club from any significant achievements for the passed three seasons, and not even this season!.

By using the same logic Rafa where would:

Chelsea be had they played most of the season with Essien and Cavarlho...

or better still Arsenal with Rosicky, Fabregas and Adebayor?

...Every team has a share of luck as well as injuries...

what a lame excuse!!!!

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:29 am

I really cant see the gap in net spends being 3 mil thou mick - just think about how much money the guy has paid out - nearly 500 mil in players give or take - look at the loses they have made when selling players - cant think of any players they have sold for a profit maybe robben but even think that was a loss - and think they lost 60 odd mil just on three players in schevchnko , veron and crespo . i really cant see it mick .

Liverpool FC Forum

Is rafa, - Being fair?

Who is online