Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 am

Two years more would make it five years without a trophy though if we don't win anything this season. Knowing Rafa though it won't come to that, things are never so clear cut. The season after next we'll probably win the Coca Cola Cup which will be just enough for people to cling onto and say we're getting there.

Coming back to my feeling that he won't win us the title, I have a question. I was considering starting a new thread with it, but didn't as it would have caused absolute ruptions and would probably have got locked anyway. The question is this.

If Mourinho had been our manager this season, with exactly the same players at his disposal that Rafa had, against exactly the same opponents playing the league campaign in exactly the same way as they have, do people think we would have been more likely, less likely or equally likely to have won the league?

My estimation is that this season, with this group of players, with the Mancs falling out of the blocks and Chelsea/Arsenal below their historic best, Mourinho would as of now have us five or six points clear. FWIW I also think we'd have two strikers at the club rather than one. Just my opinion, but there it is. I include it because I think it demonstrates where I'm coiming from in terms of my belief that under Rafa we'll always be that one step beneath where we're actually capable of being.

I know it'll upset people, but after yesterdays nonsense I don't overly care to be honest. It's my opinion, and if you don't it then tough.

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:33 am

Honest opinion - with the same inuries with have had with torres and same players - then no i dont think we would be better off with maureen maybe even worse off . But that argument could run and run and never be a winner in it .

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:00 pm

Ah if Mourinho had at disposal Alonso, Reina, Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Riera, Carra and all these nice players he didn't bring, he could win the league, yes, he's not that bad as a coach.

If we enter the world of speculation and possibilities we could wonder aswell what players would have brought Rafa if he had Mourinho's millions In Liverpool. With all the respect he has among the spanish players, Silva and Villa would be playing for us aswell. We would had have less patches, and less Arbeloas, we'd bring an Alves right away.

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:05 pm

yes that is a good point - if rafa was able to buy who he wanted - Alves , Silva , Simao , Villa etc would he off won the title - then i think yes definatly .

by **Owzat** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:23 pm

GYBS wrote:yes that is a good point - if rafa was able to buy who he wanted - Alves , Silva , Simao , Villa etc would he off won the title - then i think yes definatly .

IF Rafa had bought who he wanted to, assuming that fantasy game was workable, then how many of them would he have turned into Dirk Kuyts? Just because they are big names and do well at their clubs doesn't mean they'd succeed here. Chances are, even if Rafa had bought all the players he'd reportedly wanted to, he'd have managed to find a way of us drawing too many games even then!

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:30 pm

Who has he turned into dirk kuyt ? seems to have done well with his other big money signings - Torres,Masher ,Pepe Xabi etc . got them to flourish in the prem so why wouldnt he do it with the other top player s.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:32 pm

I think Mick's point is WE ALREADY HAVE THOSE PLAYERS. If Rafa had left at the end of last season, and Mourinho had taken over, would we now have more or less points?

If we get into who would have bought which player it become a little too hyperthetical

I agree Mick, I think we would have had more points by now, mainly because I think Mourinho would have kept the players eye's on the ball rather than on whether he will get a new contract, we would have filled a few of the gaps in the squad in the summer transfer window, and as you said we would have two strikers.

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:34 pm

I was replying to Owzats point mate - replied to micks earlier . It was sabre that asked how we think rafa would of done if he was afforded the same amount of money that maureen was given at chelsea.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:41 pm

GYBS wrote:I was replying to Owzats point mate - replied to micks earlier . It was sabre that asked how we think rafa would of done if he was afforded the same amount of money that maureen was given at chelsea.

It was just a general opinion post rather than aimed at you mate

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:45 pm

Yeah yeah i know your stalking me and picking on me

by **stmichael** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:07 pm

We have a superb first team which only needs possibly the addition of a world class winger and maybe another striker.

It would be crazy to potentially set ourselves back two or three years whilst a new manager comes in and brings in his own ideas and players.

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:01 pm

Yes but would mourinho be able to deal with the current constraints that rafa has to put up with . Would mourinho still do as good a job if not better with one hand tied behind his back . Doubt it somehow . He had a little run in with abramovich and got fecked off , how would he deal with our current situation regarding the owners and coco . Yes maureen we think your a good manager but we want to wait and see until we renew your contract . Yes i am the special one and i'm out of the door , bye . All hypothetically speaking of course

by **taff** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:28 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Yes but would mourinho be able to deal with the current constraints that rafa has to put up with . Would mourinho still do as good a job if not better with one hand tied behind his back . Doubt it somehow . He had a little run in with abramovich and got fecked off , how would he deal with our current situation regarding the owners and coco . Yes maureen we think your a good manager but we want to wait and see until we renew your contract . Yes i am the special one and i'm out of the door , bye . All hypothetically speaking of course

That is the most likely outcome. I find it strange that people think he would have won us the league as if its a stroll in the park. he lost it when the owner actually spent millions on world class players, imagine hime with worse owners who wont spend

by **Scottbot** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:03 pm

bigmick wrote:Two years more would make it five years without a trophy though if we don't win anything this season. Knowing Rafa though it won't come to that, things are never so clear cut. The season after next we'll probably win the Coca Cola Cup which will be just enough for people to cling onto and say we're getting there.

Mick, I think it is comments like that, that might be partly to blame to blame for your current fan club. It kinda bundles anyone who is supportive of the manager into the same 'stupid' category in that you're suggesting the majority would all be happy enough with a Coca Cola Cup to show for the next 2 seasons to follow this one. I certainly wouldn't be and i'd guess that i'm not alone.

by **tonyeh** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:46 pm

Kharhaz wrote:
bigmick wrote:It seems that lots of threads are concerned with whether the manager should stay or go, which many find extremely surprising given we're second in the league. Just about the only thing which there is any concensus about, is that the next six to eight weeks could provide hugely contrasting outcomes, and make the manager either look a hero or a has been.

If we win it (The Premiership) then presumeably all debate is over. If we fall apart, a similar outcome but in the opposite sense. If as seems most likely we come up a bit short, the debate will rage on about progress, whether it's enough etc.

My feeling is though, given the fact that there is 13 games to go in the Premiership for us, it seems a bit odd to be deciding the verdict on the five year plan over such a short period of matches. What if we suddenly hit form and win it, does that mean that the plan has worked? Many will say a resounding yes, and I've no doubt they'd be in the majority. By the same token, what if Gerrard's injury gets worse, Torres breaks down and we fall apart? Does THAT necessarily mean the five year plan has failed?

Because of that, before this one is over, and before the next one begins (five year plans that is) it might be an idea to look at where we actually are in terms of squad strength. Presumeably we are going to need new players in the Summer, regardless of how we go in the next 13 matches. Presumeably we are going to need to strengthen the squad in some areas, regardless. So where are we, how good is the squad today? That's the thread opener, I'll have a go at an assessment in the next post.

I know it's been done before at different stages, but it is a constantly evolving equation and might be interesting.

With regards to rafa. The "should he stay or go debate" should be left until the end of the season, when we can see whether we are any closer to winning the league or not. The problem I have at this moment in time is the timing of a new contract offer. The fact that it is being discussed shows that rafa has an element of control, even now. I would, and im pretty sure anyone else would, if they were in the position of chairman of LFC, after rafa turned down our first contract offer, say "OK fine, lets leave it until the end of the season then." More pressure on rafa? I dont think so, the pressure began when Man Utd won the league last year, they are dangerously close to equalling our record of league titles. As A supporter this concerns me, Rafa is also a supporter, this should concern him more, he can actually make it happen, however his decisions in matches leave me wondering. Not about his love for Liverpool, but his general awareness of how much the league means for us all.

If we win the league, then it can only be down to rafa buckling down and making constant sensible lineup decisions from here on in until the end of the season, can anyone see that happening? I cant.

Do we have the squad? Or more to the point, do we have a manager who can make the most of it?

Im not having a dig at rafa for the sake of argument, im just pointing out my concerns, his stubbornness could well be the end of his management reign at Liverpool FC, and his stubbornness is waning my support for him.

Worst case scenario for me, he signs a new 5 year contract in the next couple of months, we fall away from being just 2 points behind to 8+ and we can all look forward to another 5 years at least of frustration.

Have to say, I agree. Your opinion is pretty close to my own. I'm firmly in the wait and see camp regarding a new contract for Benitez. I think it could be a disaster. I certainly would NOT give him complete control of transfers, that's for sure.

Honestly though, even with our present position, Benitez just isn't doing it for me as our manager. That may change of course, but for a long time now, I've found his methods and decisions to be wanting...to put it politely.

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