Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

Edited. Already said something similar.

[kalos]

BigMick- I am a little bit torn on this to be honest.

On the one hand I'm frustrated as anything that Rafa hasn't capitalised on the start we had and the lead we SHOULD have built up.

On the other hand is it realistic to expect a new man to come in and win the league in 2-3 years? My concern is we will be back to "the 5 year plan" and I don't want to wait that long. By that time the Mancs will likely be 3-4 titles ahead of us and we may never catch them unless have new owners and a new stadium -sharpish.

Can Benitez win the title ?- I think he CAN if he gets the "lampsatnds " and "tables " that he REALLY wants. I say give him one more year at least. We might surprise everyone and catch up to the Mancs this year- unlikely but possible.

... And with the addition of 2-3 players in the Summer; next year should be make or break for him IMHO.

[account deleted by request]

Two years more would make it five years without a trophy though if we don't win anything this season. Knowing Rafa though it won't come to that, things are never so clear cut. The season after next we'll probably win the Coca Cola Cup which will be just enough for people to cling onto and say we're getting there.

Mick, I think it is comments like that, that might be partly to blame to blame for your current fan club. It kinda bundles anyone who is supportive of the manager into the same 'stupid' category in that you're suggesting the majority would all be happy enough with a Coca Cola Cup to show for the next 2 seasons to follow this one. I certainly wouldn't be and i'd guess that i'm not alone.

Winning the coca coala cup worked for Houllier, Scott, and cost us Heskey when they realised their mistake.

[GYBS]

i think rafa realises the cc is a minor trophy and will stick with fringe players for it

[bigmick]

Two years more would make it five years without a trophy though if we don't win anything this season. Knowing Rafa though it won't come to that, things are never so clear cut. The season after next we'll probably win the Coca Cola Cup which will be just enough for people to cling onto and say we're getting there.

Mick, I think it is comments like that, that might be partly to blame to blame for your current fan club. It kinda bundles anyone who is supportive of the manager into the same 'stupid' category in that you're suggesting the majority would all be happy enough with a Coca Cola Cup to show for the next 2 seasons to follow this one. I certainly wouldn't be and i'd guess that i'm not alone.

Scott my point wasn't about "bundling people up" at all, and sorry you took it that way. My point was not about the fans, it was about Rafa. He has a habit of pulling something out of the bag which muddies the waters, keeps the debate going, keeps the anti's interested but gives the pro's something to argue with.

Take this season for example. Last season we were 11 points back, this season we may end up seven or eight points back for instance. Now if we were still fourth, I reckon people would have had enough. Thye would say "nah feck it we spent 40 million quid and improved three points, time to go". But say we're not fourth, we're second. Arguably the demise of Chelsea and Arsenal isn't our doing, but because of it we look slightly better.

Rafa's Liverpool tenure is strewn with such incidents where things have dropped for him just when he needed them most. We won the Champions League and along the way scored a winning blockbuster goal in the dying seconds against Olympiacos, had Gudjohnson miss a tie winning chance from a yard with 20 seconds to go against Chelsea, and in the final won on penalties after Shevcenko had hit the back of Dudeks hand from a yard in the dying seconds of extra time. Things have happened for Rafa when he has needed them to at Liverpool. Not the Premiership so far obviously, but little twists and turns when he's needed them the most.

My point essentially is that if he stayed for 20 years, there'd be little periods here and there, the odd trophy, Champions League semi, good effort in the League etc and overall just enough to keep everyone guessing. The pro's would think we're on the cusp, the anti's would think he's had long enough. His time at Liverpool is destined to polarise opinion I think. That's my point.

My fanclub can please thesens as well to be honest.

[bigmick]

I did note that not many people could be bothered to answer the hypothetical question. If on game one of this season, with the same group of players (Keane, Dossena etc, all of them) would Mourinho have won the league with this team (always accepting of course that Rafa might yet as well).

My opinion is that we'd be 5 or 6 points clear as of now, and we'd very likely have won it yes. That, is the difference.

Wonder what the fan club think.

[taff]

This five year plan thing confuses me.  Houllier said it but I have no recollection at all of Benitez saying it and it has been bandied about this forum as something that Benitez has said.

Now either people are confusing Benitez and Houllier or just plainly lying to get their point across or I am wrong.

If Benitez said it then he has come short obviously but if he didnt and its being picked up cos Houllier said it before and Rafa has been here nearly five years then its a disgrace by those saying it as it is a lie.

Those who seem to think that Rafa has a five year plan can you please put up a link to the quote so I can apologise or alternatively admit that you lied to enhance your argument and you can apologise

[bigmick]

I've said "five year plan" a few times, and if it turns out Rafa didn't say it an people find it offensive of course I apologise unreservedly. That said, he has a five year contract and at the commencement of the Rafalution. He must have had a plan I think, so I can't see why it's so bad Taff but thats me. Presumeably if and when he gets a new contract he'll have a plan in his head again (although he might not say it) what he's going to do. I hope he does, plans are good.

Maybe he should say it to clear things up, maybe he should say "I plan to win the Premiership within 9 years of me taking the job" or something. Might just give us that little extra push.

[account deleted by request]

This five year plan thing confuses me.  Houllier said it but I have no recollection at all of Benitez saying it and it has been bandied about this forum as something that Benitez has said.

Now either people are confusing Benitez and Houllier or just plainly lying to get their point across or I am wrong.

If Benitez said it then he has come short obviously but if he didnt and its being picked up cos Houllier said it before and Rafa has been here nearly five years then its a disgrace by those saying it as it is a lie.

Those who seem to think that Rafa has a five year plan can you please put up a link to the quote so I can apologise or alternatively admit that you lied to enhance your argument and you can apologise

I dont know if Rafa ever said five year plan Taff. As I remember it, Rafa was supposedly coming in as the man who could get us winning titles WITHOUT competing with the other clubs in spending.

I did notice this though mate :-

Quote from Gerard Houllier Jan 03):
"I said when i took over we needed a Five year plan minimun. It took United 7 years to win the title"

Quote from Rafa (Jan 09):
"How long did it take Alex Ferguson to win the Premier League? It was 7 years. How long has it taken Arsenal to win the Champions League?"

Which in both cases I would suggest is a plea for more time?

Best thing that ever happened to football managers was Ferguson taking 7 years to win the title. If he had won it after only 2 or 3 years ......... they might be under a bit of pressure

Strangely none of them seem keen to mention the managers that managed to do it in conciderably less time.

He also said this prior to the CC final :-
  "I prefer to win the final and be in the top four," he declared. "When the board decided to sign me, they talked about five years.
"We need to work with the big picture, to know that it is a long race. It is my first year year.
"I am not here for winning one trophy - I will try to win all the trophies possible.
"But I am not thinking about only one or to be in the top four. I am trying to improve my level all the time. I want my team to play better each day if it is possible."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport....al.html

[bigmick]

Didn't get too many answers to the Mourinho question (although I'm personally convinced of my read on it) so what about this one.

If we don't win the League this season, how long does Rafa get after this one? Do we give it the old Fergie seven, or is it the full length of his new contract, (probably another four, making it nine in total)?

[account deleted by request]

May as well give him the full 4 years mate, if we can't beat Ferguson, maybe we can out last the b@stard.

[taff]

Who knows about Mourinho I reckon no he wouldnt have to be honest but that doesnt make him a bad manager because he evidently is a good one.

Ok no specific answer to my plan question which did dissapoint me but time to move on.

Regarding the special one, well he was touted as the replacement to Houllier and by all accounts is a big Liverpool fan but was tempted by Chelsea.  When you put that into context with Rafas first meeting with SG and Carra and MO when SG said the club is in tatters and MO wanted out then interference from Parry regarding contracts etc after he was assured he would have control (this being the main reason he left Valencia)  then the hypothetical thing loses some ground as Rafa has battled to get where we are now and in context to the other three clubs we compete against he has had a hard time.

Jose is a clever guy and picks his clubs accordingly.  This is not to undermine his talents just looks like a fact to me given the last few years.  I dont blame him but he also hasnt battled when politics has not gone his way.  This just adds to the enigma that is the special one.

So to fully answer your hypothetical question well my honest view is he would probably be in the same position in the table but he would have more confidence within the fans of winning as he does seem to instill that in the fans more than Rafa evidently has especially on this forum.  But with the chaos of the yanks and Parry then I honestly think that Jose would have walked and the interviews would be great entertainment being along the lines of great club, fans etc but light years behind the big european ones but the fans are special and Anfield is great etc etc etc  hope they get owners who are as passionate and wouldnt rule out not returning etc etc.

If rafa doesnt win the league this year then I cant see him being given more than one more year to be honest but who would do better is the difficult thing

[bigmick]

Ok no specific answer to my plan question which did dissapoint me but time to move on.

I specifically apologised unreservedly Taff, what more do you want Shall I stick me knackers in the vice out in the shed for you, fecking hell .

[GYBS]

Didn't get too many answers to the Mourinho question (although I'm personally convinced of my read on it) so what about this one.

If we don't win the League this season, how long does Rafa get after this one? Do we give it the old Fergie seven, or is it the full length of his new contract, (probably another four, making it nine in total)?

Guess there is no definate answer to that mck - as i said in another thread to the same question you posted - it all depends on what happens season by seasn .

[GYBS]

I did note that not many people could be bothered to answer the hypothetical question. If on game one of this season, with the same group of players (Keane, Dossena etc, all of them) would Mourinho have won the league with this team (always accepting of course that Rafa might yet as well).

My opinion is that we'd be 5 or 6 points clear as of now, and we'd very likely have won it yes. That, is the difference.

Wonder what the fan club think.

Answered is earlier mate but i dont think there will ever be a right answer to the that question - my opinion is we would be no better off with maureen in charge in exactly the same circumstances this season .