Liverpool FC Forum

by **Emerald Red** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:25 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:That's a quality post that, Leon.

Dont worry, these fifteen bottles of Becks will wear off by mornin and I will be back to my one line sarky posts.

They are wearing off already.

by **bigmick** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:30 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Is it possible to "get behing the bloody team" even if you think that there's a good chance that we might not win it?

Not if your a glass half empty neg head who revels in defeats and draws its not.

Everyone must "think there is a good chance that we might not win it" - Chelsea and United have dominated the LEague landscape for the last few years and we have never been close, not when we finished 11, 21, 9 and 35 points off top spot in the last four years. There is little evidence (efore the results this season) that we would muster a challenge, but we have and we are.

Like it or not (in most people on here's case) we are in the mixer. I dont want to have to dig out peoples quotes, but I bet everyone ot a man will have begged to be "in with a shout at the turn of the year". Well HELLO - here we are mid January and if we win our next game we will return to the top of the table. If thats not in the mixer fu.ck knows what is.

You see the problem here is too many Liverpool fans think we have some kind of devine right to win games, competitions and championships. We fuc.king well dont.

The League left us behind at the start of the nineties, and the ineptitude of the heirachy at the club in failing to make hte most of our dominance of the football world in the late seventies and eighties (as United did to the nth degree when they started winning hte LEague in the early nineties) has meant we are behind our competitors in terms of both stadium (Chelse, United and Arsenal), cash flow (United, Chelsea and now lately Arsenal) and most importantly in terms of the game squad. We spend £40m one summer and people expect us to match teams who pay that for a player (United and Chelsea) or they expect us to bring players through a youth squad that hte manger has little or no control over unlike our rivals (United and Arsenal) where the respective managers are instrumental in hte development of youth football.

People need a wake up call.

In the same year that Manchester United looked to have crowned their meteoric rise with a charecteristic last minute discplay to secure a (magnificent) treble, Liverpool Football Club was in the doldrums, finishing within a win of such lumanaries as West Ham United (above us) and Derby County, LEaicester City and Middlesborough (below us) in 7th place in the PRemier LEague. This was rock bottom and the result of an unprecedented slip from grace that saw players like Sean Dundee, Oyvind LEanhardsen, Phil Babb, Stig Inge Byornebye and Bjorn Tore Kvarme playing regularaly with the Liverbird on their chest.

Despite many peoples views, the fresh ideas and continental influence of Gerard Houllier managed to drag the off field side of things into the modern day. People thought we would claim our "rightfull place at the pinnacle of English football". Wrong.

Sadly his illness clouded his judgement of players and ultimately the past decades lack of quality's influence of club funds prevented him from getting anywhere near the other top clubs. Regualarly the London sides could easily outspend us, and the lure of the capital resulted in some players who would undoubtedly have improved our chances opting for the golden paved streets. Ultimately, we where back in the reckoning off the field, but on it we where still a long wway off.

Rafael Benitez's Liverpool was so desperate for REAL financial clout that the club was sold initially to Arabs, but eventually to the (apparently) more pro active American Dollars. People once again beleived we would be right back in the reckoning. Wrong.

We are still behind the other teams in terms of squad development. There is no escaping hte matter. Thats why to get this close to the action is an acheivement in itself.

Unfortunately - Liverpool fans take too much for granted and as soon as one goal is acheived (being in the mixer in the new year) this is expected to be the norm, and complaints come in about not being 12 points clear.

Any other side (Villa would be a good example) who had been on the periphary of the top of the league for the last four years and then found htemselves at the top and with a chance to return there would (rightly) be lauded greatly. Not Liverpool. Apparently we should be pis.sing the league.

Support, beleive and be patient.

Frightening figues on the league there in terms of how far we've been behind, I agree with you. 76 points in four seasons is it, an average of 19 points behind the leaders. No wonder one or two fans get a bit hot under the collar really when you look at that, particularly when you look at what we've spent while we've been doing it.

All that considered though, that's why I've been saying for a couple of seasons now that challenging is the first priority. If we don't quite get there this season, provided we challenge (which we already have, regardless of what happens from here) it's a big step forward. I've talked before about building a base camp, getting involved in the race before going on one big push, and hopefully this season will be at the very least a base camp. I've said a few times that simply challenging this season is an achivement in itself, and I'm happy to repeat myself here.

Not sure about enjoying draws and defeats though, contrary to popular belief I'm not sure any Liverpool fan does that. Neither do many think we have a devine right to beat people either. I do think myself though that if you are serious about winning the title, you have to go all out to TRY and win almost every game. Some (like Arsenal away) are games in which you'd take a point, but when an opportunity presents itself like it did for us this season my view is that from there you have to go all out to win it. Similarly, I kind of think the selection of Kuyt up top on his own as opposed to in his best position, is almost a defensive move rather than an attacking one. Benching your best two strikers is the same, and hopefully we are learning all the time in this regard.

I agree with you about Villa as well, they must be over the moon. Who would have thought they would metorically advance this season to the extent that they are within four or five points of the top of the league at this stage? They've made up huge ground on Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal all in one go, just shows how much they've improved I guess.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:50 am

bigmick wrote:I won't do the old "buttrock buttrock" though as it's probably inappropriate from me on this occasion.

just spat me wine out everywhere :laugh:

by **Ciggy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:53 am

I will go on record right now and say we will not win the premiership this season.
And you can quote me on that.

by **Leonmc0708** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:56 am

Ciggy wrote:I will go on record right now and say we will not win the premiership this season.
And you can quote me on that.

Your right, I can - look.

by **Leonmc0708** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:57 am

bigmick wrote:I do think myself though that if you are serious about winning the title, you have to go all out to TRY and win almost every game.

I agree.

Thats why we should sack the management and players who are obviouslt not trying to win games.

I despair I really do.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:02 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I do think myself though that if you are serious about winning the title, you have to go all out to TRY and win almost every game.

I agree.

Thats why we should sack the management and players who are obviouslt not trying to win games.

I despair I really do.

Cmon Leon noway did Rafa try to win that game against Stoke last week he was buzzin with the point.

That is why the other two tw@ts have won the league in the last two decades because they go for it, we where going for it aswell then we seemed to grind to a hault the handbrake was well and trully on.

We played great against Chelsea yet he was terrified of Stoke

You go to all our games you cant say you wernt dissapionted?

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:01 am

Effes wrote:
Effes wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Effes wrote:
Ciggy wrote:We could have been 12 points clear if we had won our home games. So the Mancs games in hand would not have mattered.

No, dont you see? People who were comaplining about our draws at home to Stoke et al
were just doom and gloomers apparently.
We had to be happy because we were top according to them.

and the season isnt over yet and the mancs havent played their 2 matches so they havent won it yet and we're still top.

Maypax - I'll re-quote your post 7pm Saturday and we can expand on it then.

Your thoughts Maypax

i watched the manure game against bolton. to keep it simple...they have better players...and definitely a better manager who has the balls to go for the kill irregardless of whatever threat the opponent might give and the risk that comes with it. at least they tried. in fact 1-0 wasnt fair on them. it should have been 4-0 if not for the GK having a blinder.

thats what we lack - ruthlessness and the cutting edge. rafa is too conservative. keeps playing kuyt though he is rubbish and has been rubbish for a long while. he is stubborn and he has awful timing with his mouth. first, the fergie rant, and even during the rant he brought up contract talks. then there was more contract talk to come later as days went by and also a david gill attack. i dont understand why all these contract stuff cant be kept behind close doors. just because the journo asked him does it mean he has to submit? he seems to be trying to gain some support using the press as his medium and i think he should STFU. im sick and tired of reading the papers everyday and seeing contract talks or rafa rants at david gill or fergie almost everyday.

he is stubborn and comes across to me as an egomaniac who just wants to keep trying to prove his system is correct no matter the results. i was delighted we crushed newcastle but i was worried as it sort of meant rafa would be more confident of naming such a cr@p line-up which he did against stoke and we were toothless. rubbish display from the team whose faces didnt look like they even wanted to be there. and he says all these media talk about liverpool isnt affecting the players. tell you what rafa, your man-management skills sucks. always had, always will. unless he tries to be more adventurous and tries to win games...we wont win the league.

i recall in the first half of the season we had 4 strikers playing on the pitch or something? i recall we were chasing a win, rafa brought on attackers and we only had 2 defenders left i think.i cant recall which match though. what happened to that kind of spirit? why so conservative now? we got the win then. i was very impressed cause even if it remained a draw we knew he TRIED. the stoke game....he didnt even make use of his final sub. i predict we'll finish 3rd. behind chelsea and manure to win the league. my heart wants us to win the league but when you look at the performances, its obvious who wants it more.

by **sgs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:09 am

Ciggy wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I do think myself though that if you are serious about winning the title, you have to go all out to TRY and win almost every game.

I agree.

Thats why we should sack the management and players who are obviouslt not trying to win games.

I despair I really do.

Cmon Leon noway did Rafa try to win that game against Stoke last week he was buzzin with the point.

That is why the other two tw@ts have won the league in the last two decades because they go for it, we where going for it aswell then we seemed to grind to a hault the handbrake was well and trully on.

We played great against Chelsea yet he was terrified of Stoke

You go to all our games you cant say you wernt dissapionted?

Ita also about picking ur fights, knowing when to leave the fight for another day...

The stoke game was tough to take, but in many ways I can understanding the choice of 'protecting' ur key players either returning from injury or short on confidence, knowing in advance it was going to be a tough physical and low scoring game.

Of course if it was left to me, I would choose differently, but my point is the need to appreciate a different perspective.

by **sgs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:14 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Effes wrote:
Effes wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Effes wrote:
Ciggy wrote:We could have been 12 points clear if we had won our home games. So the Mancs games in hand would not have mattered.

No, dont you see? People who were comaplining about our draws at home to Stoke et al
were just doom and gloomers apparently.
We had to be happy because we were top according to them.

and the season isnt over yet and the mancs havent played their 2 matches so they havent won it yet and we're still top.

Maypax - I'll re-quote your post 7pm Saturday and we can expand on it then.

Your thoughts Maypax

i watched the manure game against bolton. to keep it simple...they have better players...and definitely a better manager who has the balls to go for the kill irregardless of whatever threat the opponent might give and the risk that comes with it. at least they tried. in fact 1-0 wasnt fair on them. it should have been 4-0 if not for the GK having a blinder.

thats what we lack - ruthlessness and the cutting edge. rafa is too conservative. keeps playing kuyt though he is rubbish and has been rubbish for a long while. he is stubborn and he has awful timing with his mouth. first, the fergie rant, and even during the rant he brought up contract talks. then there was more contract talk to come later as days went by and also a david gill attack. i dont understand why all these contract stuff cant be kept behind close doors. just because the journo asked him does it mean he has to submit? he seems to be trying to gain some support using the press as his medium and i think he should STFU. im sick and tired of reading the papers everyday and seeing contract talks or rafa rants at david gill or fergie almost everyday.

he is stubborn and comes across to me as an egomaniac who just wants to keep trying to prove his system is correct no matter the results. i was delighted we crushed newcastle but i was worried as it sort of meant rafa would be more confident of naming such a cr@p line-up which he did against stoke and we were toothless. rubbish display from the team whose faces didnt look like they even wanted to be there. and he says all these media talk about liverpool isnt affecting the players. tell you what rafa, your man-management skills sucks. always had, always will. unless he tries to be more adventurous and tries to win games...we wont win the league.

i recall in the first half of the season we had 4 strikers playing on the pitch or something? i recall we were chasing a win, rafa brought on attackers and we only had 2 defenders left i think.i cant recall which match though. what happened to that kind of spirit? why so conservative now? we got the win then. i was very impressed cause even if it remained a draw we knew he TRIED. the stoke game....he didnt even make use of his final sub. i predict we'll finish 3rd. behind chelsea and manure to win the league. my heart wants us to win the league but when you look at the performances, its obvious who wants it more.

I think something def has to be wrong with the iq of anyone who would say of kuyt that he has been rubbish for a long time. Like his game or not, one has to give him his dues...

by **Ciggy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:15 am

sgs wrote:Ita also about picking ur fights, knowing when to leave the fight for another day...

The stoke game was tough to take, but in many ways I can understanding the choice of 'protecting' ur key players either returning from injury or short on confidence, knowing in advance it was going to be a tough physical and low scoring game.

Of course if it was left to me, I would choose differently, but my point is the need to appreciate a different perspective.

We should have beat them twice end of no excuses.

by **Madmax** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:20 am

At the moment majority of people around the premiership must see mancs recent ascension in the league and must have come to a conclusion that they will win the premiership. With the way they are playing and yet still winning games 1-0 is just typical of them. Last season they did this on occasions i think they had 6-7 1-0 wins at the beginning of the season. Also i checked mannures stats last season and they really clicked in october roughly after beating chelsea and were scoring many goals ever since.

However this season its been really unusual from them they have lacked consistency and have not scored as much as they did this time last season. In thier last 9 premiership games they have recorded 7 wins and 2 draws. 6 of the wins have been 1-0 and also including the 3-0 chelsea thumping draws have been against villa and spurs. In those 9 games they have scored 9 goals. United are lacking some fluency upfront with scoring more goals but what is the annoying thing is they still could pull out a victory when the match is doomed a draw. I think if mannure are to win the title they would need to excel into another level and perform better. For our sake i hope they still stutter and lose points.

If mannure increase the tempo then so must we. From now on we must treat every game as a cup final, go for a win have the mentality that a draw is not enough. Even when we are playing below par and the game is 0-0 in the last 10 mins we shouldnt relax and settle for a draw. We should hit teams hard with passion and go for a win. The team that wins the premiership will the be the one that wants it the most. Lets just hope it will be us!

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:22 am

i think something has to wrong with the brains of anyone thinking they should know when to pick their fights and leave some for another day. what do you think this is the champions league where they have 2-legged matches and we would have a second chance at advancing if the first leg doesnt go our way? its the league. the bread and butter of the team. a league where you grind out results consistently week after week playing to your strengths instead of trying to nullify the bloody opposition and sacrifice a huge part of your abilities in doing so.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:26 am

If you wanna pick your "fights and live some for another day" with teams like stoke..... we might itself throw in the towel right now ....

:laugh:

by **Owzat** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:16 am

Ciggy wrote:
sgs wrote:Ita also about picking ur fights, knowing when to leave the fight for another day...

The stoke game was tough to take, but in many ways I can understanding the choice of 'protecting' ur key players either returning from injury or short on confidence, knowing in advance it was going to be a tough physical and low scoring game.

Of course if it was left to me, I would choose differently, but my point is the need to appreciate a different perspective.

We should have beat them twice end of no excuses.

Exactly.

Here's a stat I don't believe I've quoted for a long time :-

In the 05/06 season Liverpool did the double over TEN teams - no surprise that was our best ever Premiership points tally and just shy of a real title challenge.

I'll list the teams we beat, these are the kind of teams we should be doing the double over :

Wigan
West Ham
West Brom
Sunderland
Portsmouth
Newcastle
Man City
Bitters
Blackburn
A Villa

You could compile a similar list to that for this season, we need to win 27 games give or take and doing the double over ten teams would mean only seven wins out of the other eighteen, and probably much tougher, games.

So if we aimed at doing the double over 10 of the bottom thirteen teams that would be leaving margin for error :

20. Tottenham - lost away already
19. West Brom
18. Stoke - drew home and away
17. Middlesboro
16. Blackburn
15. Portsmouth
14. Sunderland
13. Newcastle
12. Bolton - DOUBLE DONE
11. Man City
10. West Ham - drew home already
9. Fulham - drew home already
8. Hull City - drew home already

At the moment we can do the double over 12 teams - but to do that would have to include wins over Man Utd (a), Chelsea (h), Portsmouth (a) and some other testing games. Already we've blown several doubles over teams we should be doing the double against.

vs Promoted Sides 2008/9

Man Utd : P4 W4 D0 L0 F14 A3 PTS 12 (Won 100%)
Chelsea : P4 W4 D0 L0 F10 A0 PTS 12 (Won 100%)
Aston Villa : P4 W3 D0 L1 F7 A5 PTS 9 (Won 75%)
Liverpool : P4 W1 D3 L0 F5 A2 PTS 6 (Won 25%)
Arsenal : P4 W2 D0 L2 F6 A5 PTS 6 (Won 50%)

I've thrown in villa and Arsenal who are battling it out for fourth at the moment. The mancs have shown ruthless efficiency, despite only scoring one away to Stoke they won all the games and scored 13 goals at home against sides we scored just five against at home and beat only one of (WBA 3-0)

Yesterday I heard that cliche again about winning scrappy/ugly being the sign of champions. Beating the teams you should is the sign of champions, doesn't matter how. Not beating them is the sign of also-rans. Of those five teams we could be the only ones not to beat Stoke, even though Arsenal and villa both came a cropper at Stoke's hands they could still end up with more points off Stoke if they win the reverse fixture. In four games we've already scored the least goals of the four sides and have the lowest win percentage (wins being three points makes that very relevant)

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