Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:06 am

I was going to put this on the match thread, but as always that descended into a sh!t fight and in any case it's a bit of a recurring theme so I thought I'd stick it here.

Now having read Owzats' posts over the last few years, I am now convinced that you need to win around 27 or so games to win the Premiership. Obviously that's not easy, and sometimes through no fault of your own, a dodgy penalty or a flukey deflection will deny you what you deserve. Equally however, sometimes you are the recipient of a stroke of good fortune which might allow you to nick one where otherwise the game was looking like a draw.

Equally, as it's three points for a win you can afford to lose a couple in your quest for the three points, as obviously three wins and two defeats get you a sh!t load more points than five draws.

So the question is this, do we go for it enough? Did we go for it enough today once Fabregas had been carried off, and Adebayor sent off? Now I know Emerald (surprise surprise

) maintained on the match thread that as we brought on three "attacking" subs, we couldn't really show more intent than that.

For my part, I'm not so sure bringing a second striker on with two minutes to go is that attacking , nor am I convinced that the regulation 65 minute swap of Riera for Babel is that attacking either. Taking Keane off and pushing Kuyt up top seems to me to be very like accepting the result as is, and I for one was left a little disappointed that we didn't go for it more. Would Chelsea, would Man Utd have allowed Arsenal to so comfortably hold on for a point, or would they have risked defeat themselves and gone for the win given the favourable hand they'd been dealt?

Fortune favours the brave and sometimes you've got to go for it. We will NEVER get a better chance of winning the league, it would be a shame to fall short through lack of ambition. Thoughts anyone?

by **Petar2** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:10 am

You can have all ambition of this world,but without creativity,you will finish 3rd or 4th

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:11 am

Top of the league.

7 points from 9 against the other teams in the big four.

Sack the manager.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:21 am

As I said in the match thread, I don't think we have the players to "go for it " at the moment. Babel seems to have lost the will to fight for his place, Ngog is no where near ready which leaves you with ?

Once Torres comes back hopefully we will press harder but without another "big man" up front we just don't seem to have a plan B.

Our limitations off the bench mean that more often than not we are just subbing like for like and the only real change is fresh legs rather than a fresh challenge for opposing defenders.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:33 am

bigmick wrote:Thoughts anyone?

I've said it in a few of the other threads but the lack of a target man is a big problem for us this season, especially with teams sitting so deep and denying space. We don't really have a plan B do we? Even when Torres is fit. I really hope the manager makes a move in the transfer window. Someone like Gudjonsen would do just fine by me...

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:35 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:Top of the league.

7 points from 9 against the other teams in the big four.

Sack the manager.

Not your best post that one Leon and a good example of why I get a bit bored sometimes trying to discuss football on here. The first post in the thread isn't a Rafa bash, it's asking a simple and fundamental question, did we and do we go for it enough.

I'll take it from your answer that you think we did/do.

Sack the manager? :sleep

by **redtrader74** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:46 am

I very much doubt a side with Carra and Gerrard lacks ambition, sometimes opponents try not to lose.

We still lack quality up front. Keane will perform if he can play with someone on his level, Torres, but has not yet had time to build a partnership with him. 27 wins may have been par, but with the intensity of the league this year, with teams busting a gut for every point, I doubt we are going to see the league winners having 85+ points.
Being top of the league right now shows we have ambition, ofcourse I'd have loved us to have won every game, but at the half way point we are in the position that we need to match Manu and Chelsea fo the rest of the season, (I'm expecting Chelsea do no better than draw tomorrow), to win the thing.

That said I cannot fathom some of the tactical reasoning. I though we could have changed Lucas for Babel and play him with Keane, or kuyt with Keane and Babel on the right. We needed to whip some crosses in because Arsenal are poor there. Fcking Sammy!!!!

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:20 am

I don't doubt our ambition. I don't doubt the players, or the managers ambitions either. It's clear they want to win. It's clear the manager tries to work with what he's got.

As S@int touched on, it's clear that injuries, and a lack of like-for-like first team quality players that can make an impact coming off the bench is the bane in our season thus far.

In January, I expect things to be shaken and freshened up a little as far as the squad goes. We need to add genuine quality if we are stay the course of the season. Our only big signing of the summer has been misfiring, but that's not to say it was a bad signing at all. Far from it. He's been without the main striker and the player that was to partner him up front in Torres. Take Torres out of our team at any given time, and we were always going to suffer. It's just a matter of bad luck that we lost him to injury, but that's football.

What's so positive about it is that we're still up at the top of the table without him and we still have not been playing well. I've every confidence that once we start firing, then we'll open that gap that we should already have. A lot of people are moaning. But lest they forget, that you have to be up there with the rest of the contenders before the business end of the season even starts before you can be taken seriously as contenders yourself. We've done that. Ambition for half of the season would have been to do just that. Job done. Roll on the second half and lets see what we are made of.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:29 am

bigmick wrote:Fortune favours the brave and sometimes you've got to go for it. We will NEVER get a better chance of winning the league, it would be a shame to fall short through lack of ambition. Thoughts anyone?

Not according to Wenger we don't....

Reds afraid to win, says Wenger

Arsenal 1 Liverpool 1

Independent.co.uk

Only once he had finished bemoaning the injustice of Emmanuel Adebayor's red card did Arsène Wenger delivered a painful truth for Liverpool. The Arsenal manager contemplated how his 10 men had managed to hold out for a draw for the best part of 30 minutes and offered an explanation that cuts to the heart of Rafael Benitez's side. Maybe, pondered Wenger, yesterday's opponents were too "scared" to go for broke.

There you had the brutal truth about a Liverpool team who have drawn four out their last five Premier League matches yet still find themselves top of the table. They could have been so much further ahead of Chelsea, who will go top by a point if they beat Everton tonight, yet something is holding them back. Arsenal, bereft of their playmaker and captain Cesc Fabregas, without their centre-forward, were there for the taking but Liverpool showed none of the ruthlessness required. "Did they have no more resources or were they scared to be caught on the break?" Wenger asked of Liverpool. "It's difficult to know. One or two players had cramps. I don't know if they were tired or were they scared to push on? There were a few breaks where they could smell danger and after that maybe they became a bit more cautious.

"When you play against 10 men for almost 45 minutes and you do not win the game you cannot be completely happy with the result." Ouch. Benitez was not on the bench for Liverpool – finally defeated by the kidney stone complaint that has plagued him of late, he sent his instructions via mobile phone to Xavi Valero, the Liverpool goalkeeping coach, who passed them on to Sammy Lee and Mauricio Pellegrino. If there was any doubt as to who was in control, the inevitable substitution of Robbie Keane 10 minutes before time told you exactly who was pulling the strings.

Having taken control of the game in the second half, Keane scoring the equaliser after Robin van Persie's opener, Liverpool were given the ideal opportunity to push on for the win on 62 minutes. Adebayor, already booked for a foul on Emiliano Insua, stepped over the ball with his studs up dangerously close to Alvaro Arbeloa's leg. A flailing arm caught the defender limply in the face and it seemed that Wenger thought it was for that innocuous act which his striker was dismissed.

In truth, the referee Howard Webb had little choice but to show Adebayor a yellow card because the studs-bared stamp has become one of football's great taboos. As a home crowd that mourned the snapped leg of Eduardo last season, Arsenal's fans were wrong to boo Webb. The referee made the right decision yesterday, as he did when he sent off Cristiano Ronaldo against Manchester City in November. That is why he is the best referee in the country.

Relentlessly positive though he tends to be, even Benitez's assistant Lee admitted to a "sense of disappointment in the dressing room" that Liverpool could not make their advantage count.

"You need to give credit to Arsenal because once they went a man down they had their organisation right, they didn't succumb to our control," he said. "Sometimes that does happen. I would still like to give great credit to our lads. We worked and worked to use the numerical advantage but we did not do that to the greatest degree." Steven Gerrard dipped in and out of the game, perking up momentarily in the second half but even he missed a fabulous chance from Dirk Kuyt's cross just before the break.

by **whylongball?** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 am

It wasnt very ambitious really.I thought Rafa was more interested in a point imho even after Adebayor was sent off. I thought he could do a lot better by throwing Babel in for Lucas going for 442. SG and Alonso in the middle would be more than ok for Arsenal midfield. Babel for Riera is never a good move unless the spanish is tired. As it turned out, he contributed little, losing the ball most of the time. The guys is not a winger for god's sake!! And taking Keane out?? Was he tired? i'm not sure, he looked ok to me..
Basically, once they got a man sent off, i thought it was a draw or worse they might sneaked a goal from set piece.
Not impressed but as some say top of the league so what i can i say?lol
Hopefully at the end of the season we dont have to look back at the chances we misse that may earn the title.

by **slickrick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 am

don't think a target man is the answer, to be fair we are lacking 2 top notch creative players, 1 behind the striker and 1 on the right, barca have no target man yet they destroy teams by unbelievable creativity which we lack badly! i know ya can't compare to barca but its just an example

by **whylongball?** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:41 am

scott, as in my post above, Rafa wasnt scared to win, he was afraid to lose a point. Too much respect for the opponent but little self-confidence

by **taff** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:41 am

Bigmick, a good post but concerning the Arsenal game I have to disagree with us not going for it. In other games then I would agree more but this was Arsenal and I think we had the better of the second half but were also cautious to an extent and right to do so. Keane has me perplexed as I thought he was fading but at the same time I would have liked to have seen him stay on the pitch. Babel and El Zhar I thought made a difference although not enough of a one.

As it was Arsenal away I am happy with a point although I would dearly love to get three points in the next game and that is now becoming a bit of a pressure point for us.

I dont care what Wenger says as I think he is also disguising the fact that we had the second half.

by **azriahmad** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:43 am

We bought Keane at such a high price, and it is true that he can be a bit individualistic, but we have never played him like how he used to be played at Spurs.

We were too cautious, when Arsenal was there for the taking, had we reverted to a 442 and injected some pace and taken off someone like Lucas.

I don't know how many times more Chelsea and Manure are going to drop points so that we can still stay in front in the league table. We should be comfrotable with more than a 2 point lead over Chelsea and having played a game more. We should be 4 points ahead.

We have done well by taking 7 points out of a possible 9 points from the big hitters, Manure, Chelski and Arsenal. However, the painful truth is that we have dropped too many points against the so-called lesser lights in the Premiership at home.

I love Liverpool FC to death (since 1975/76 when I was a wee boy), and I would take even a dour overall style of play as long as we win the league. We need to get this great monkey off our backs, make the first league championship win since 1989/90 and break this barren run, then we can concentrate on turning on the style.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:10 am

Is it lack of ambition? Or is it "Ïf you cant win, dont lose"mentality? From Rafa.

I think its the latter, strangeling the life out of the other team, we are very hard to beat first and foremost rather than going for the kill. We dont seem to have that mentality for killing games off.

If we had beat Fulham, West Ham, Stoke then a point at the Emirates would seem like a fantastic result but it doesnt because of them stupid draws, I hate them draws against the dross they really fuckin piss me off.
Because we should easily beat these teams, and I fear them points dropped will come back to haunt us like they have done in the past.

We had 13 draws last season and 5 up till now, how many more times will we draw again this season?
Is the reason playing two holding midfielders at home?
When we should be going all out for a win with 4-4-2 formation?

We where playing great attacking football until we got beat by Spurs then we resorted back to the old boring formation where you think where are the goals going to come from?

I just wish that rafa would be less cautious at times, Sammy Lee said after the game yesterday rafa was delighted with the result and spoke to the players on the phone congratulating them.

I would have taken a point before kick off but they where there for the taking and we didnt take our chances and this is what hurts, we continue to rely on Gerrard to get us out of the sh!t when others should be trying harder, Ive got no complaints about Robbie keane he played well yesterday but was isolated and didnt get much service again.

Until torres is back this issue needs addressing we have to have a Plan B, we need goals Rafa changed his methods to fit in around Torres and he has paid 20 million for Keane so the methods have to be changed again to get the best out of him.

We need to be more offensive and stop being so cautious, stop worrying about what others are going to do and just play our own game.

Dont get me wrong I am delighted we are top of the league whilst missing Torres, Aurelio and Skrtel, but I am just terrified that we lose the league ourselves if we dont win it we only have ourselves to blame and not the others playing better than us.

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