Rafa - Time to show lessons have been learned

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby account deleted by request » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:34 am

I know this is a highly emotive subject, but it shouldn’t be beyond fellow Reds to debate it without resorting to abuse. Aside from loving the club, the universal theme amongst almost everyone on this issue is that they like Rafa as a bloke. Why then can’t people recognise that those Reds who are critical of his management are not grinding some personal axe? There isn’t a Red alive who doesn’t love the bloke for Istanbul; does anyone think it’s possible to feel that way but also make an unfair assessment of his overall record in charge? I don’t. Let’s cut out the abuse eh, boys?

I began to doubt Rafa roughly this time two years ago as I saw him repeating many of the same mistakes he’s already made. To my mind, there are several areas for which he is deserving of criticism. None of them can be explained away by the ownership issue, in my view, and I see all of them in the context of an expectation that Liverpool Football Club must put in a credible challenge for the league every season.

Now the apologists inevitably nit pick over that criterion, but it should be interpreted as (relatively) loosely and fair-mindedly as you like. I think we should be getting a roughly improving points tally each year (give or take a minor blip), rather than regressing, ultimately finishing within a couple of matches’ difference of the winners at the end. We should be talking about maybe two draws and a defeat being the dividing line rather than 20 points when all’s told, and the 82 point record should be seen as both a precedent and a benchmark.

So, those are my criteria and they’re not dependent upon matching the spending of the big two. I wouldn’t mind, but as I said, he’s already measured up to what I’m looking for in his second season. Against that context, I believe Rafa has consistently made numerous errors of judgement:

1. He is obsessed with rotation to the point of disrupting both individual and team performances. There is a ton of what I would regard as evidence for this, but I’m not going to bother citing any here. Basically, I think too many times we’ve seen players go out on the pitch and look like total strangers to each other, as well as fall short of their own individual best. Rotation is an essential element of top class football now, but it should be used far less liberally than it has been under Rafa. I’m most dubious about its use in defence and it worries me that the last season or so has seen him begin to deploy the policy there too after being previously more circumspect.

2. Because of the above issue (and the changing tactics mentioned later on), he has signed dozens of players who were never good enough to improve the first team. So what if he moves some of them on for a profit? There is still the money that has gone out of the club’s pockets in agents’ fees that was needlessly spent. And besides, the priority is to improve the team, not the balance sheet (this was going on way before The :censored: came near the club).

There have been a number of players who have been broadly good signings, but the only ones I consider to have unequivocally proven their first team quality are Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres and Crouch - and at least two of those would have some Reds quibbling and a third has been injured for going on half his time here. Beyond them, there have been other decent signings and a couple could still prove their brilliance, but how many were dramatically better than those they replaced?

The bottom line is that Rafa has, with very few exceptions, spread the money too thin - and often at the expense of Academy/youth players. No-one can yet argue that a youngster has left the club to prove him wrong (Ste Warnock would be stretching the term “youngster”), but I don’t see why he has to sign so many 4th or even 5th choice players on contracts that will exceed those of the young lads and simultaneously impede their possible development. If all you want of a 4th/5th choice is someone to “do a job” a mere handful of times a season, why can’t that player be a youngster?

Quantity over quality is a flawed policy and one that is still being employed.

3. He is obsessed with changing things in almost every area of his job. He uses players out of position too many times. Lucas on the left, Kuyt on the right of a 4 (or even a three), Yossi on the left, Xabi too deep, Keane on the left, I could go on and on and on as those are only examples from the five games of this season. How can he possibly think these players are better than specialists for those roles? And if he doesn’t, why has he not signed specialists yet? He has had four years to do so, after all.

Similarly, he has ditched systems that work (Crouch as the fulcrum in the 2nd season to accommodate Kuyt and apparently 4231 this season) to no discernable advantage, and players who still have plenty to give, at least relative to many of those who remain.

4. He is tactically too cautious. Too many people interpret this criticism as a call for reckless and naive football, or else they attempt to diminish it by picking holes in the tactics used by the clubs who have consistently finished above us. Is there anyone who can deny that Rafa seems more concerned about avoiding defeat rather than going for the win, though? The fact is that a win and a defeat gives you a point more than two draws - and we’ve had too many of them under Rafa.

5. His personal relationships are fraught with conflict and create extra tension for the club and team. In terms of players, Crouch and Alonso have been poorly treated in my view, both to the possible detriment of the team. He has also had detrimental public arguments with his bosses, coaches and colleagues in The Academy. The fact that his stance in some of these may be justified, doesn’t mean it is in his or the club’s best interests to play them out in public. Am I alone in being reminded of the boy who cried wolf in relation to the quit threats?

In short, I don’t think Rafa is going to achieve what I regard as the minimum requirement for this season and I don’t think he will have recourse to any explanation beyond his own decision making. The thing that is so frustrating is that if he’d stop over-complicating absolutely everything, he actually has the players to beat that 82 point record. In my view he should play the 4231 system with these players (despite the question marks that exist about the fullbacks and Babel):

Reina

Arbeloa Carra Agger Dossena

Xabi The Chief

Gerrard Keane Babel

Torres

The front four should be given the freedom to play fluidly in terms of their positions, the full backs encouraged to push right on (albeit not recklessly), Xabi given licence to dictate the play and The Chief told to sit and protect the centre halves. A high defensive line should be held with Pepe able to sweep up behind and a high tempo employed in an aggressive manner. He would then have some great options from the bench in those who remain - maybe not to change a game (although I think Yossi and Dirk could be much more effective players if used in the hole and centrally, respectively), but certainly to allow the first teamers to have a rest.

Loads of people will call my criticism unfairly premature, but I can’t see our position in terms of either the results or performances of a five game-old season; I see it in the context of a tenure in its fifth year. What I want is very simple and I think both Rafa and the players are equiped to deliver it. However, I don’t think it will happen because Rafa will over-complicate everything as outlined above and if we fall short, I will want to see a change in manager at the end of the season.

I really and truly hope that I am wrong and that Rafa can deliver in the league. I’m not saying that to placate those with the opposing view or to sound like “a good Red”; I’m saying it because, despite his faults, I really like Rafa and I want to see him succeed.

Come on Rafa, lad!!!

Paul

Ripped from TLW

I know a few people don't like posts being copied from other sites , but I would have written something similar if I had the ability. I agree with most of what he has written and think he has put across the main worries of the "doom and gloomers " well. Hopefully it will lead to some good debate, but if not its only a thread wasted , no one died.
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:40 am

good and sensible post. sensible criticisms of rafa.

IMO rafa is a bit unfortunate that whatever 4-4-2 system he applied, it doesn't work as well as it ought to. It's abit out of his hands really. for example to many of us Keane was the first choice second striker. But how were we and rafa really to know that, given his experience in the premier league and his former successful partnership with berbatov, his partnership with torres doesn't seem to be working as well as we and rafa hoped. It's still early days and they could still yet hit the ground running but for a club like LFC who needs to be challenging for the title from the beginning, it has become an obstacle. Another fact is gerrard has been underperforming, despite giving us a winner against boro. If gerrard doesn't score we seem to have a problem winning games 45% of the time with the other 45% of the time being Torres' percentage. The remaining 10% apparently now belongs to Kuyt :p. Other than them... where are the other match winners? Benayoun is capable of scoring a few odd goals but he has bee almost useless playing on the left. Babel went to the olympics and still couldn't get enough sleep. Why could Mascherano straight away put in a good performance after getting back from Beijing and Babel could not? Alonso need to step up and become a match winner abit more regularly. Danny Murphy was no where near Alonso's ability or technical skill but he was more of a match winner than Alonso is now IMO. And now we don't have anymore of 3-4 Hyppia's headed goals off corners and 4-6 riise's piledriver winners a season. Agger was scoring a few goals in his first full season but what happened to him? why isn't he playing? It seem to me that the players need shoulder some of the blame as well. Is their relationships with rafa not as good as it should be?

On the other hand, we have new players now, and it was up to rafa to come up with a system that instantly hits the ground running. IMO, like the OP above, he should've stuck to 4-2-3-1, a system we already know that brings the best out of our players, and try to introduce the new players into it with specific instructions of what their roles are. both babel and kuyt were doing great in that system last half of last season. and that's where rafa comes into criticism IMO. Too many changes, formations, players, etc. in too short a time...
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:47 am

basically all my points put into an eloquent post
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Postby LegBarnes » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:19 am

peewee wrote:basically all my points put into an eloquent post

I think that is how we all feel about Rafa but we either have him or don't there is no middle ground.

I had idea about keegan he is a top attacking manager right ?

I wouldn't have him as full manager of liverpool due to his poor setup of defences but think about this Rafa manager Keegan as attacking coach it would be a great combo.

I have no doubt we would improve alot with Keegan at club in that sense.  :idea
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Postby Alanay » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:39 am

We should be setting a standard of a forceful strike force that will gain us the premier leage title. So far, Rafa has shown how good we can be as a defensive line. I'm quite upset when he played Keane on the wide position during the game with Villa. Hopefully, he can make a different this season as we have been waiting for quite sometimes already for him to show that he can win us the league title.
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Postby bigmick » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:23 am

the topic starter pretty well sums up the way I see things, can't really disagree with any of it.
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Postby Sabre » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:44 pm

I want to do a criticism on Rafa that doesn't deserve a new thread but I wanted to know what you think about it. This is the first Rafa criticism thread that I found not locked, I thought it was better here than in the interview thread.

Question: Did Rafa make a mistake with Sinama Pongolle? He's become a French international. Back then I remember I liked the player, but as third option, I never considered him what we needed as starting eleven.

But this young player is growing, he did well in Recreativo (scored in Anoeta a great goal I remember), he earned his way to Atletico and at the slighest opportunity of injury of Forlan, he's making goals there. And now he's become international of a country that getting that position is not cheap.

Normally, when we offload a player doesn't later become very good, but, did Rafa call it wrong this time?

Hopefully now the atmosphere surrounding the team is better we can make criticism without discussing harshly.
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Postby bigmick » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:56 pm

I think it would be harsh to criticise the manager too much over Sinema-Pongolle. He was some way away from being good enough for a regular starting starting slot when we let him go, and although he obviously had plenty of potential it's something of a surprise that he's developed as he has. At the end of the day, you can only play eleven at a time, and when a fella is third or fourth in line then you have little choice but to eventually let him go if he isn't moving up.

It's a similar situation to Sissoko. Anyone who has suffered the drudgery of wading through my posts on him will know he's a player I rated very highly, so it's no surprise to me that he's been a revelation at Juventus. I've no doubt he will continue to be so, such is his unique ability to win the ball imn unusual areas that it wouldn't surprise me if one day he went for a huge fee. That said, at the time we sold him he obviously wasn't going to get a regular start (neither was anybody else back in those dizzy days of "Rafa style" but thats another story) and so it was damaging his brittle confidence. Such was his predicament, that a once excellent player put in some woeful performances before his departure and it was only the forsight of Ranieri which rescued him.

That they go on to make something of themselves though doesn't necessarily mean you made a mistake. I have a sneaking suspicion that Lucas will one day make a footballer (I know I'm probably in a minority of one but that's OK) but equally I will be surprised if it's at Liverpool, or indeed in the Premiership.

No Rafa has made many mistakes just like everybody does, but selling Ping Pong for me wasn't one of them.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:04 pm

He always had a bit of ability on the ball and good pace, but no, I wouldn't say it's a mistake on Rafa's part. He was on the fringes of the team, and didn't perform consistently well enough to warrant staying.

How many of us would've kept him at the time? Not many I suspect.

There were several ahead of him anyway - Cisse, Crouch, Morientes - and we were looking to raise as much as possible for the summer transfer window.

He's a decent player, and would definitely be a good back up now, but at the time I think Rafa made the right decision.
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Postby Sabre » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:26 pm

Yes, I see where you both come from, and I agree he doesn't deserve harsh criticism on it.

However, if injuries strike us With Torres, and then Murphy's Law hit us with a Keane injury, we have to rely on Ngog, who, is still a inmature player. (Ok, we also have Kuyt and Babel options, but anyway)

I think Sinama Pongolle is a good example that actually a player can GROW especially from when you are very young. I know what Stu means when he says players don't become what they're not, but then we also have seen many players evolving.

Rafa can't be blamed much because IIRC, Pongolle wasn't very keen on staying here, but, had he wanted to stay here being a sub rather than going to Recreativo, it would have been interesting to know if he would have evolved aswell.
Last edited by Sabre on Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fo Dne » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:11 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
peewee wrote:basically all my points put into an eloquent post

I think that is how we all feel about Rafa but we either have him or don't there is no middle ground.

I had idea about keegan he is a top attacking manager right ?

I wouldn't have him as full manager of liverpool due to his poor setup of defences but think about this Rafa manager Keegan as attacking coach it would be a great combo.

I have no doubt we would improve alot with Keegan at club in that sense.  :idea

:no
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Postby Fo Dne » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:15 pm

Sabre wrote:I want to do a criticism on Rafa that doesn't deserve a new thread but I wanted to know what you think about it. This is the first Rafa criticism thread that I found not locked, I thought it was better here than in the interview thread.

Question: Did Rafa make a mistake with Sinama Pongolle? He's become a French international. Back then I remember I liked the player, but as third option, I never considered him what we needed as starting eleven.

But this young player is growing, he did well in Recreativo (scored in Anoeta a great goal I remember), he earned his way to Atletico and at the slighest opportunity of injury of Forlan, he's making goals there. And now he's become international of a country that getting that position is not cheap.

Normally, when we offload a player doesn't later become very good, but, did Rafa call it wrong this time?

Hopefully now the atmosphere surrounding the team is better we can make criticism without discussing harshly.

Rafa called it VERY VERY wrong with Sinama-Pongolle and alot of people knew that at the time. He was a very good player and still is and has found his consistency. The lad had a bit of everything about him but wasn't used enough.

Benitez should never have got rid of him or Steven Warnock.

Whats embarressing is that Warnock is far better than anything we have in that area by a distance and we let him go for how much?

:no

Two completely crazy decisions from Benitez.
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Postby Fo Dne » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:17 pm

bigmick wrote:I think it would be harsh to criticise the manager too much over Sinema-Pongolle. He was some way away from being good enough for a regular starting starting slot when we let him go, and although he obviously had plenty of potential it's something of a surprise that he's developed as he has. At the end of the day, you can only play eleven at a time, and when a fella is third or fourth in line then you have little choice but to eventually let him go if he isn't moving up.

It's a similar situation to Sissoko. Anyone who has suffered the drudgery of wading through my posts on him will know he's a player I rated very highly, so it's no surprise to me that he's been a revelation at Juventus. I've no doubt he will continue to be so, such is his unique ability to win the ball imn unusual areas that it wouldn't surprise me if one day he went for a huge fee. That said, at the time we sold him he obviously wasn't going to get a regular start (neither was anybody else back in those dizzy days of "Rafa style" but thats another story) and so it was damaging his brittle confidence. Such was his predicament, that a once excellent player put in some woeful performances before his departure and it was only the forsight of Ranieri which rescued him.

That they go on to make something of themselves though doesn't necessarily mean you made a mistake. I have a sneaking suspicion that Lucas will one day make a footballer (I know I'm probably in a minority of one but that's OK) but equally I will be surprised if it's at Liverpool, or indeed in the Premiership.

No Rafa has made many mistakes just like everybody does, but selling Ping Pong for me wasn't one of them.

Its not a suprise at all. The lad shown talent and quality whenever he was given a chance. He wasn't a natural goalscorer and won't score you shed loads of goals a season but he was good player who could make things happen and had a bit of skill and awareness in his play.

I was fuming when Rafa got rid, especially seeing what he replaced him with.
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Postby Sabre » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:21 pm

Definitely it's safe to say that when he brought Bellamy and Voronin he didn't improve what Sinama could give us.

But it's true aswell Pongolle wasn't ready to stay as a sub.

As for the mate that mentions that he didn't show much, I don't remember Rafa giving him two games in a row, I remember a cup tie against Luton away (I think) in which the lad scored two, if I remember correctly a header and a shoot, and then the lad hadn't another chance in a month.
Last edited by Sabre on Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Sabre wrote:As for the mate that mentions that he didn't show much, I don't remember Rafa giving him two games in a row, I remember a cup tie against Luton away (I think) in which the lad scored two, if I remember correctly a header and a shoot, and then the lad hadn't another chance in a month.

Yes at that particular time sabes scoring two goals in one match was definately not a good idea if you wanted to play in the next match. I remember Crouch around that time was getting benched on a regular basis after finding the net.

One of those goals in particular by Ping Pong did make me sit up and take notice. he was amrked up and kind of just stepped away from the fella to "open the door" for the pass as I call it. He then ran on to a through ball from Alonso (I think) and finished with aplomb. The movement though was very clever, and was in indication of real quality, as well as being probably his best moment for us I thought.
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