Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:22 pm

I don't understand thinking that there is much of a difference between playing:

Carra Skrtel Agger Dossenna/Aurelio

and playing:

Gerrard Masch Alonso Riera

I can understand if you were against both or against the idea of having both Carra and Gerrard on the right adn then as a cause of that didn't want Gerrard on the right because you already put Carra over there, but your reasoning for not wanting Gerrard deployed on the right was completely hypocritical to your point on being ok to play Carra on the right despite it not being his best position.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 am

Toffeehater wrote:Firstly to clarify on the gerrad being played on the right yes , he's done fantastic there , one season , a couple of times in some other games , but stevie has cleary stated that he does not like playing there and like i have said he tends to drift back into the middle .

No argument there, mate. He does prefer the middle and he does drift back to the middle from the right. That's not to say he's not the best right midfielder at the club at the moment because I'd say he certainly is. It's all about what's best for the team. I personally think that a happy Gerrard is best for the team and so I'd play him through the middle but I can understand others wanting to see him line up ahead of Kuyt, Babel, Yossi or whoever on the right.

As for the good performances part , yes he has had good performances with both before masch came into the picture but i can't rmb which game it was but xabi was out for quite some time last season and when he came back , you could see that gerrard and him were not clicking in the same way they were before , Xabi is good player yes , but he's very inconsistent , he played well yesterday but was pretty much poor in the last 2 games , does well for spain almost everytime but 75% of the time , does not perform that well for us , bar his first season .

I don't want this to turn into another debate about Alonso. Suffice to say that I don't think Alonso is anywhere near as inconsistent nor as poor as you make out. Nor do I think Alonso inihibits Gerrard's game at all. In fact, if we had no choice but to start Alonso and Gerrard as our CM pairing for the rest of the season, I'd assure you we'd do just fine. But, we can agree to disagree on that one.

As for masch , yes he does bomb forward and thank god he does or we would not have scored that goal yesterday but he runs back and defends whenever we loss the ball , or he's played the ball on already . He holds the defense better than anyone we have , xabi is NOT a defensive midfielder , he's a centre midfielder like stevie . Masch is also fast and he's strong and tackling is superb , maybe not as good as makele or gattuso but he's getting there and he's still young . Alonso doing a better job at defending not a chance mate , he's not the greatest tackler and was at fault for the goal boro scored , ad should have closed down mido 2 games ago . Masch is also MORE CONSISTENT and better in the defending department too , the only thing he lacks is good passing that xabi does have .

First, you'll get no argument from me that Masch is a superb midfielder and one of our great assets. No question about it. Second, to clarify, I never said that Alonso was a better defender--I said that Alonso 'stays home' more and shields the defence when playing with Stevie, while Masch hares all over the pitch. That's not a problem--as I also said--I was just making the point because I get tired of reading that Masch sits deep and holds while Gerrard does all the box to box stuff. Bollox...Masch, in his own way, plays box to box.

The only CM on our books now that consistently sits deep is Alonso.

As for the Alonso mistake against Boro, yes it happened. Just as Masch was largely culpable for Tevez's goal yesterday. Strangely, you don't ever mention when Masch makes mistakes, though.

As for the right back issue , carragher is probably the best defender we have in the squad , also the most versatile , yes he's best position is center back but he's done great playing at right back , gotten forward alot when played there and if you saw against boro he got forward even though he was playing CB . Agger and Skrtel are 2 young defenders and i think we need to play all 3 , if i am not wrong skrtel can play anywhere across the back 4 as well? As for arbeloa getting forward and putting in good crosses , well that does not happen often enough , he rarely overlaps as opposed to the left side of aurelio and dossena with babel and riera . Before agger was injured , he was immense , than skrtel came into the picture and now is firmly favourite over him , the only way agger and get back to he's best is by him playing matches and i hope to see him start against stoke next week , maybe even come on as a sub in midweek

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Carragher's best position is CB by a long chalk. At right back he'll reveal his limitations before too long while a Skrtel/Agger CB pairing will have significant teething problems. Using Woof's analogy ask yourself, where would opposing players prefer to see Carragher's name on the teamsheet...at RB or CB? It's pretty clear cut, IMO.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:27 am

Toffeehater wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:this gerrard debate got me thinking
1) how many times did we win with him in the centre and with him on the right?
2) how many goals did we score when he was on the right?
3) how much more of an attacking threat are we?
4) is the really best in CM? cos i personally dont think so as i feel he is hindering alonso's game.

1) Can't be used to judge anything as he has played in the middle more often , you could base the % if he has played equal games in both positions

2) Again can't tell you that unless someone can find the stats

3) Well if gerrard was on the right and we had xabi and alonso in the middle we're not really an attacking threat now are we .

4)First season they both played in the middle and alonso was still superb? How is gerrard playing in the middle affecting alonso's game now? Last season he was playing as a 2nd striker in the 4-5-1 and still alonso was not performing , i don't think you have a valid point there

1) we're better at opening up defences when gerrard was on the right. at least he had the skill and ability to dribble and control instead of having the ball bounce of him.
2) dont think its far off to assume that he scored more goals in that one season then all our right wingers combined.
3) of course we arent any threat when we have xabi AND alonso playing in the middle.
4) why does xabi seem to step up when gerrard isnt playing? wasnt the first season something like ''kewell-momo-alonso-gerrard''?

put it another way...who would get you the goals? kuyt, gerrard and xabi/mash OR xabi, mash and gerrard?

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:02 am

As I've said a thousand times, I like Gerrard on the right because I think it's easier to get him on the ball in the final third. Now I know Woof said that all the pundits prefer him central, and they mostly do but I'm not going to change my opinion because of that. They know better than me? Almost certainly they do but I'm sticking with my ideas anyhow.

When you look at where he should play for us at the moment, the question is really not as simple as "where is he at his best?", as it is at the end of the day a team game. Therefore surely the question should be where is best for the team for Gerrard to play? Now once again it's not as simple as saying "he'll do as he's fecking told", because you need him to play somewhere near his best which he won't do if he isn't happy.

My feeling FWIW is that Xabi Alonso is a significantly better central midfielder than Dirk Kuyt is a right sided midfielder, and as Gerrard is better in both positions than either of them it makes sense to go with Alonso centrally and Gerrard on the right. Now I don't claim to know Gerrard personally, but he seems a sensible enough fella to me, and if it was expalined to him properly I'm fairly sure the lure of a Premiership winners medal would probably sway it for him. The fear lingers within me that with our right side patrolled by either or a combination of Kuyt/Benayoun/Pennant/El Zhar, that that winners medal may never actually be in his hand.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:38 am

At the moment, I'd be happy with either of these two teams:

Torres Keane Torres Keane

Riera Mascherano Alonso Gerrard Riera Mascherano Gerrard Babel

Aurelio Agger Carragher Arbeloa Aurelio Agger Carragher Arbeloa

Reina Reina

by **Festy** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:00 am

I'd rather put Carra at right than Arba until Degen is fit.

by **Owzat** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:28 am

bigmick wrote:As I've said a thousand times, I like Gerrard on the right because I think it's easier to get him on the ball in the final third. Now I know Woof said that all the pundits prefer him central, and they mostly do but I'm not going to change my opinion because of that. They know better than me? Almost certainly they do but I'm sticking with my ideas anyhow.

When you look at where he should play for us at the moment, the question is really not as simple as "where is he at his best?", as it is at the end of the day a team game. Therefore surely the question should be where is best for the team for Gerrard to play? Now once again it's not as simple as saying "he'll do as he's fecking told", because you need him to play somewhere near his best which he won't do if he isn't happy.

My feeling FWIW is that Xabi Alonso is a significantly better central midfielder than Dirk Kuyt is a right sided midfielder, and as Gerrard is better in both positions than either of them it makes sense to go with Alonso centrally and Gerrard on the right. Now I don't claim to know Gerrard personally, but he seems a sensible enough fella to me, and if it was expalined to him properly I'm fairly sure the lure of a Premiership winners medal would probably sway it for him. The fear lingers within me that with our right side patrolled by either or a combination of Kuyt/Benayoun/Pennant/El Zhar, that that winners medal may never actually be in his hand.

You say the pundits may know better, but you're sticking to your ideas. Could that not be the case also with Gerrard? While I'm sure he may be tempted by the lure of a winners medal, I'm sure he'll think he's the best player in the side and is needed 'where the action is'

Funny how Keane has done no more than Kuyt, less in fact, and yet plenty still include him in their best XI. Apparently Kuyt 'runs around like a headless chicken', despite being our most consistent goal threat, scoring crucial goals and setting up fantastic wins, while Keane 'closes down the opposition to win the ball back'. Funny thing perspective

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:34 am

Kuyt's league goal scoring record for us is atrocious.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:38 am

Going by the second half of last season and the start of this season this is what i think should be starting 11

-----------------------Pepe------------------------

Arbeloa--------Carra--------Skittles-----Aurelio/Dossena

---------------Masher------Xabi-------------------

Kuyt-----------------Gerrard-------------Reira

---------------------Torres------------------

Subs

Carvelri
Agger
Dossena/Aurelio
Lucas
Babel
Keane
Yossi

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:39 am

Owzat wrote:Apparently Kuyt 'runs around like a headless chicken', despite being our most consistent goal threat,

Now Crouch isn't here any more, you're probably right about that one Owz'

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:11 am

To be honest, whatever our best eleven I think we'll see Rafa mixing it up depending on the opposition.

For example, having seen Stoke against Everton yesterday, Hyypia simply has to play against them next week so that we have some height to deal with their long throws.

by **Festy** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:12 pm

stmichael wrote:To be honest, whatever our best eleven I think we'll see Rafa mixing it up depending on the opposition.

For example, having seen Stoke against Everton yesterday, Hyypia simply has to play against them next week so that we have some height to deal with their long throws.

Yep. That's why Carra will be more effective against opposition like Stoke who put thousands of long diagonal balls per game and I seriously doubt Arba will be able to handle them. Hypia and Skrtel needs to be in the center for the Stoke game.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:15 pm

Are we seriously going to worry so much about Stoke that we'll completely reorganize our back four to deal with their 'threat'? Bollox to that! :no

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:20 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Are we seriously going to worry so much about Stoke that we'll completely reorganize our back four to deal with their 'threat'? Bollox to that!

Before you know where you are, Hyppia and Dossena are in, Gerrard comes back for Alonso, Torres for Kuyt who reverts back to right midfield, N'Gog comes in for Keane who gets a welll deserved rest and we've rotated half the team.Then when they've nicked a point courtesy of a late equaliser and all our rivals pick up points on us, we'll wonder why.

That said, I'd probably play Hyppia too

by **Festy** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Are we seriously going to worry so much about Stoke that we'll completely reorganize our back four to deal with their 'threat'? Bollox to that!

No we are not going to worry but Rafa will. It's in his blood to always choose starting 11 according to his opponent. And don't forget it'll be our 3rd game in a week so he's more than likely to rotate.

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