Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Yes I know it's early etc etc but what do people make of what they've seen so far? I think given the fact we've shelled out 20 million quid for Keane, it can be taken as read that he figures in our best eleven and it's in some some sort of 4-4-2ish formation. I know he hasn't done much so far, but the fee dictates that he simply has to play in nearly all the games, and we can't stick him out at left wing and ask him to run around quite a lot. Not at 20 million quid, it's just not feasible. If Keane flops, then Rafa by definition is majorly at fault and I don't think it'll happen.

So given that, what else do you think. Even allowing for the styling, we must surely have some sort of pecking order even if it isn't exactly a first team, what do you think? I rambled on a bit on the Standard Liege match thread and have nicked some of this off there, I was just curiuous what others thought.


The goalie picks himself, but we really do need to get the centre halves sorted. I don't really mind who we go for, but lets get them sorted because it is impossible to build a defence around two centre halves which change every game. This is an absolute basic of team selection, and we've changed them in each and every competitive game so far. I know some people quite like rotation and all the various theories that go with it, but I'd be interested to read any on the notion that changing them as often as we have is a good idea.

At right full-back Arbeloa needs to pull his finger out of his erse but gets in because Deggen is beyond help, while at left full-back Dossena worries me. I've seen him twice now, and he worries me because I don't think he's good enough. Now I know it's early (and certainly too early for any manager to admit he's shelled out 7 mill on a bit of a dud) but I hope Dossena either proives me wrong sharpish, or Rafa bites the bullet and reinstates Aurelio (who I firmly believe is a better player) before too much longer.

In midfield, despite the old routine of centre forward marking him out of the game being much in evidence against Middlesboro Alonso gets in, with of course Gerrard (Masherano would play in front of Alonso for me if fit, with Gerrard replacing Kuyt on the right). Yossi Benayoun never has been good enough and never will be whereas Babel probably isn't but just might be so the Dutchman gets the nod, while on the other flank Dirk never has and never will but I'm at a loss to suggest a sensible alternative (other than Gerrard). By virtue of the fact that he runs about a lot I suppose he gets in, but it doesn't fill me with lots of positive anticipation to see him there in a 4-4-2 where I think his limitations are cruelly exposed.

Up top, Keane and Torres are slowly learning to not block each others shots and obviously must be persevered with.

So in summary, of what we've got available now I'm suggesting picking two centre halves and sticking with them, replacing Dossena with Aurelio and Benayoun with Babel.

Any thoughts?

[burjennio]

gk Reina

rb Arbeloa
cb Carragher
cb Skrtel
lb Dossena

dm Mascherano
rm Kuyt
cm Gerrard
lm Babel

ss/am Keane
st Torres

ATM i dont think that any position can be argued with. Agger at full fitness and a run of games is the only variable IMO if Keane must play (which of course considering the fee, he should, changing the effective 4231 fro last year to a 442/4411)

[Lando_Griffin]

So we struggle like f*ck to win games playing a 4-4-2, having been outstanding when using the 4-2-3-1, but 4-4-2 is our best formation...

It gets better.

[burjennio]

Lando_Griffin Posted on Aug. 25 2008,21:29So we struggle like f*ck to win games playing a 4-4-2, having been outstanding when using the 4-2-3-1, but 4-4-2 is our best formation...

It gets better.

would you play keane in a 4231?

[holylamb2006]

Reina
Finnan    Carragher   Skrtel    Dossena
                     
                       Masch
     Kuyt                              Babel
                      Gerrard
             Torres           Keane

Kind of a 4- 3- 3 with gerrard with free roam but can slot beside Mascherano if needs be ...

[bigmick]

So we struggle like f*ck to win games playing a 4-4-2, having been outstanding when using the 4-2-3-1, but 4-4-2 is our best formation...

It gets better.

Well without getting into a debate about 4-3-3-1 and 4-4-2 (and there really is very little difference anyway) I think the point I was making was that somewhere, Keane needs to found a place for given we've just shelled out 20 million for him.

FWIW I had us as playing 4-5-1 last season during our most successful spell and not 4-2-3-1 but whatever it makes absolutely no difference to the question in hand.

That was quite simply, what do you consider to be our best eleven? Course nobody has to answer if they don't want to, but it's not that ridiculous a question really I don't think.

[bigmick]

As an add on, I would ask as well for any reasoning with regards certain players. Do we think we should find a settled defensive pairing, do we like Dossena, do we think Keane Torres will work etc etc. Rather than jst putting up a team sheet, back up your selections with some reasoning.

[burjennio]

I put in Dossena because Aurellio's consistency comes into questioning as he's ALWAYS injured. Im still not sold on Arbeloa unless he's in to do a marking job. his distribution is suspect and doesnt offer alot pushing forward. Steve Finnan is just getting on a bit, but probably still a better all round footballer than any of the other fullbacks, but then his susceptibility  in the air comes into play. Ive only seen Degen for about 30mins so cant really comment on him. Kee-Rist, where did it all go wrong for JAR?

[JC_81]

Not necessarily based on the first few games, but this is what I think our team should be.

                                Reina

Arbeloa          Carragher       Skrtel            Dossena

Benayoun       Gerrard        Mascherano      Babel

                    Keane           Torres


Carragher and Agger isn't our best pairing imo.  Neither attack the ball when it's in the air.  At least Skrtel tries to do this.  Hyypia is still the best at it, but we can't expect him to play as much as last year and we should really settle on a preferred pairing rather than chop and change.

Arbeloa is solid enough, but RB is a weakness imo.  Finnan seems to be out of the picture altogether but probably is still the best right back on our books.  Dossena I think will come good and will prove to be more reliable than Aurelio.

Benayoun is for me a better bet than Kuyt or Pennant, but RM is again still a weakness.  Gerrard and Mascherano would be my choice in the centre and I think it's make or break season for Babel on the left.  He'll either kick on or we'll be calling for him to be sold at the end of this season.

We've spent too much money on Keane not to play him in his best position, which is either with or just off Torres up front.

When you look at that side on paper the right side is the glaring weakness.  But I don't think Kuyt is the answer long term and the only other option is shifting Gerrard from the centre, but I'd be loathe to do that as I don't think Mascherano/Alonso work as a pair.

Add a quality right midfielder to that team instead of Benayoun and you've got a team that might do something.

[Fo Dne]

Well without getting into a debate about 4-3-3-1 and 4-4-2 (and there really is very little difference anyway) I think the point I was making was that somewhere, Keane needs to found a place for given we've just shelled out 20 million for him.

Disagree... one has 11 outfield players...

One has 10...

[Fo Dne]

Not necessarily based on the first few games, but this is what I think our team should be.

                                Reina

Arbeloa          Carragher       Skrtel            Dossena

Benayoun       Gerrard        Mascherano      Babel

                    Keane           Torres


Carragher and Agger isn't our best pairing imo.  Neither attack the ball when it's in the air.  At least Skrtel tries to do this.  Hyypia is still the best at it, but we can't expect him to play as much as last year and we should really settle on a preferred pairing rather than chop and change.

Arbeloa is solid enough, but RB is a weakness imo.  Finnan seems to be out of the picture altogether but probably is still the best right back on our books.  Dossena I think will come good and will prove to be more reliable than Aurelio.

Benayoun is for me a better bet than Kuyt or Pennant, but RM is again still a weakness.  Gerrard and Mascherano would be my choice in the centre and I think it's make or break season for Babel on the left.  He'll either kick on or we'll be calling for him to be sold at the end of this season.

We've spent too much money on Keane not to play him in his best position, which is either with or just off Torres up front.

When you look at that side on paper the right side is the glaring weakness.  But I don't think Kuyt is the answer long term and the only other option is shifting Gerrard from the centre, but I'd be loathe to do that as I don't think Mascherano/Alonso work as a pair.

Add a quality right midfielder to that team instead of Benayoun and you've got a team that might do something.

Wouldn't play Gerrard and Mascherano in a two ever again after last season. No creativety, to flat, no intelligent play, neither press the ball in the right positions and both leave holes in the midfield.

Gerrard needs to play centrally around a player like Scholes or Deco.

[Fo Dne]

In answer to the question...


                  Torres         Keane
Bennayoun   Alonso      Mascherano     Gerrard
  Aurelio       Hyypia       Carragher       Finnan
                         Reina

[account deleted by request]

While its extremely early to be trying to pick a best team, my early view is that our new buys have hardly come out of the blocks running, in fact they haven't really left the starting line yet. 

My hopes once again are pinned to the top quality players we have........Reina, Carra, Agger, Masch, Gerrard, Torres. If they play to their best levels we are in with a chance, injuries to a couple of them and I think we can forget any sort of real title challenge.

The next group are the "good enough" players.....Hyypia, Skrtel, Alonso, Lucas, Babel, Keane. While not key players, I think they will do a good job when called on with a few top class performances and MAYBE a few forgettable ones thrown in.

Then we come to the questionable ones, players that might do OK, but are just as likely to cause endless frustration and cost us points. Cavelieri, Arbeloa, Finnan, Dossena, Aurelio. The worry is a couple of these are likely to be first team regulars!

Last and most definately least are the players I don't really want to see much of this season Degen,Benayoun, Pennant, Kuyt, Voronin. Although to be fair, Kuyt purely on effort and hard work should probably be in a higher category.   

Best ELEVEN

Reina

Carra
Skrtel
Agger
Dossena/Aurelio (depending on formation)

Aurelio/Alonso/Lucas (depending on formation)
Mascherano
Gerrard
Babel

Keane
Torres

I have basically gone for a standard 4-4-2 but with a couple of changes it would become the famous 4-2-3-1....... which with the players we have available would mean little difference anyway.

[Sabre]

In the CM some would pick Mascherano-Alonso, others Mascherano-Gerrard, others Mascherano-Alonso with Gerrard somewhere else and all of them would be valid options.

It's clear to me that Alonso hasn't a sure spot in the starting eleven, he'll have to give his best.

That's why, and here I try to enter the thread's topic, it surprises me that in the games so far, the only position that seems undiscussable for Rafa seems to be Kuyt in the right. While I appreciate the Dutch, I certainly don't think he's that good to own that place all the season. We haven't signed anyone for there, and Gerrard seems the only good option for there if we want to be a top club, that is.


Fabio Aurelio is my favourite LB for what I have seen so my starting eleven would be


--------Reina-------------

Arbeloa Carraguer Agger Fabio Aurelio

Gerrard----Alonso---Mascherano (May I include Riera over Benayoun yet?)

------------Keane
------------------Torres.



With this formation I think we have our best midfield in the pitch, we have the decent Arbeloa well protected by Gerrard, we have a quality LB and cross your fingers against injuries, and we have a partnership upfront which is interesting.

For the 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, align the players in the formation you like most, as this starting eleven is perfectly capable of playing both, thank you. (Remember that Rafa, even under a  4-4-2 makes their strikers work a lot outside the box, and Keane is much better than Morientes or Voronin in that!)


The weakness of my choice is perhaps aerial balls but that's where we must recover the rigour of previous seasons in which we were the team that allowed least the opposition to approach our box. A proper pressing might kill aswell the sending of dangerous balls.

[LFC2007]

Starting from the back...

Goalie - sorted.

In defence, I'd have Finnan in at RB simply because he's better than Arbeloa and Degen (Its early but I'm pretty sure of it). It's a weak area, but I'd rather have a steady eddy in there who can cross reasonably well/defend reasonably well than one unknown who looks like a headless chicken, and a player in Arbeloa who can't block a cross for love nor money, and offers nothing going forward.

At CB, ideally I'd have Agger in there because - on form - he's the best CB we have bar Carragher. He didnt look fit against Liege and looked out of sorts, so there may be something in that as to why he didn't start against Sunderland/Boro. Sooner or later he'll have to get fit and get games though, and I'd like to see him rectify his poor showing by starting against Liege on Wednesday. Skrtel is reasonably sound, positionally he gets caught out every so often but I'm hoping that can improve. Hyypia has lost a yard or two and should be played sparingly. So Agger - Carra for me, and with Skrtel pushing him for his place, Agger will have to get back into the groove sooner rather than later though.

At Left back, I'd persist with Dossena for now and see how he comes on. If he doesn't begin to perform to an acceptable standard in the next few games, get Aurelio in. However, whoever we choose to play, we're still miles behind our rivals in the full back positions. It's crucial for at least one full back to have a very good seasonm, you can't carry two if you want to win the thing.

To the midfield...

With Mascherano returning this week, he'll be more than likely to start more often than Alonso, and in my view, he's essential protection. Going forward, it's a dilemma having him back I think, drop Alonso or play both of them?, and would playing both of them amount to accommodating both just for the sake of getting our best 11 players on the pitch, and if so, would that be to our overall benefit?

I prefer seeing Gerrard in central midfield, as that's where I believe he can drive forward and influence the game to the greatest extent - though he will inevitably drift all about the show as that's just what he does. I'm unsure whether Alonso can offer enough drive going forward in the centre. I think just sraying passes isn't enough in that position, he'll need to be getting forward - near or inside the box, shooting every so often and scoring more often. He isn't that type of player unfortunately, so I don't know if Torres or Keane would be afforded enough support from him in the upper echelons of the pitch. If he was in the centre alongside Mascherano, then Gerrard would inevitably be on the right - as Keane simply must play up top with Torres. I don't have a major problem with him on the right, but the balance of the team would be affected detrimentally I feel - for the aforementioned reason and also because we would have nobody on the left (though we could sign someone) to offer that same strength on the other side - i.e. strength in possession. It's a tough call I think and I'm genuinely unsure. It boils down to whether you think the extra balance a centrally starting Gerrard would offer, is more important than accomodating Alonso, and how effective is Gerrard on the right in comparison to starting centrally? Is it worth playing Gerrard centrally when we'd surely have to field one of Kuyt/Pennant/Benayoun/Babel on the right? I just don't know, and all I can really categorically say is I'd prefer Gerrard centrally in an ideal situation - but with our deficiencies out wide it throws up a huge conundrum. However, with a quality left-sided player in the team - which is still feasible this transfer window, I'd be more inclined to put Gerrard in the right as I believe we'd then be able get enough support for Torres/Keane, and the burden upon Alonso to support the play wouldn't be as great. As usual, Kuyt/Benayoun/Pennant aren't good enough whilst Babel is highly questionable, with this season being pivotal for him. I don't know who to pick out of those four.

Up front, Keane and Torres without question.