Liverpool FC Forum

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:25 am

Rafa-Dodd wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Your beloved, never do wrong Rafa is the gaffer, obviously saw what I saw in Pennant aswell, quite funny really how I got that one wrong and overated the lad... looks like I wasn't the only one ay... I must be so stupid for rating Pennant, I mean, Rafa would never have got that wrong either because he's the Liverpool Manager... oh wait... yes he did didn't he.

Just like Crouch. mate -

Like I said, where is Crouch now if he's such a good player?

Why do you think Rafa never played him if he's such a good player?

by **Sabre** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:28 am

Masherano IMHO is one of our three World-class players. The other two are obvious (and sorry Sabes and Lando but Xabi isn't one of them) but although being the most debateable of the three, Masherano makes the cut for me.

I don't need Xabi being considered a world class player whatever that is. I do consider Alonso of the same league of Mascherano, and I couldn't possibly care about being in a minority or not. :laugh:

If it's a matter of saying it convinced, I will.

I'm fine with the praises Mascherano receives, I like any red receiving credit. As long as we don't get too carried away. And I say this for the benefit of Mascherano: I don't want another Alonso case in which in his first season words like "World Class", "Pass Maestro", etc, etc, etc, have become in a "Water Carrier" these days. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

My point is that I do not want those "Monster Mascha", "Mascheranator", and "World Class" comments converted in "Doesn't score enough goals", "He loses the plot" , "He's average at best" in two seasons. Because my hunch is that we do that often here -- except with Gerrard.

Saying that Gerrard would be picked in the 22 best PLAYERS of the world is nice from a Liverpool fan and for the record **I** agree that. But many may argue that should Gerrard was Spanish he wouldn't have a place in the starting eleven -- like Fabregas. In fact, I'll enter a Spanish general footie forum (not a club's forum but many club's forum) to state that Gerrard is better than any Spaniard for the sake of experimentation...

Also I have seen an "average-dull" player, so was described here, like Makelele doing nice things in England.

My point? World Class player is tough to define and probable it depends on who you ask to, and when. For instance if you ask in England who's the best starting eleven they'll pick many premiership players. In Spain? they'll do the same thing, they'll never consider Rooney over Villa for instance.

And that's why I only consider world class players those who prove to be at top level many years, like Gerrard. A World Class Player would be so in England and in Spain, and in Italy, no matter the kind of football you throw at him. Zidane has shown that. Gerrard haven't, and I hope he won't move from England to show that, but I'm sure that if he played in Spain, he'd be top top footballer aswell.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:31 am

Masherano IMHO is one of our three World-class players. The other two are obvious (and sorry Sabes and Lando but Xabi isn't one of them) but although being the most debateable of the three, Masherano makes the cut for me. Why? Because I think he's the best holding/defensive midfield player in the Premiership, and although I don't watch football from around the World my suspicion is he's one of the best around. If i was picking a squad of 22 players for the World team, Masherano would be in it. This is my definition of World class.

Absolutely spot on summary there from an "armchair fan" :nod

by **bigmick** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:36 am

Fo Dne wrote:
bigmick wrote:Might as well chuck my two penneth into the ring. Joey Barton is a good player, a footballers footballer who reads it well. He is better than many give him credit for. He is not though in the same stratosphere as Frank Lampard. Lampard is or certainly was a top midfielder. The number of goals he scored and made over the last four seasons would have been a decent return for a striker never mind a midfielder. He isn't as good as Gerrard, is a bit of horrible cockney ponce, but is a better player than Joey Barton, by a distance.

Absoloute, typical armchair rubbish.

Well it's typical armchair rubbish in the sense that I do most of my observing from one these days. That said Stu, I can absolutely assure you that even if I had a Newcastle season ticket, a Chelsea season ticket or one for Anfield or wherever else, my opinion on the respective merits of the two players wouldn't change.

I think there is actually quite a yawning gap between the two players in terms of what they bring to the team (we're still on about Lampard and Barton here). The fact that you completely disagree in terms of which one is in the ascendancy is fair enough. It doesn't mean you are an idiot in my eyes, nor that you haven't played to a decent standard, or that you wasted your time getting your badges. It simply means that I think you are mistaken. It's Ok.

You know, I played football myself to quite a decent standard as a kid. I didn't make it, in truth because I wasn't quite good enough. Not bad though if I do say so meself. That isn't the thing though which gives you an understanding about football, neither is talking to other people or debating with them on forums. You gain an understandinfg i think by watching it avidly, looking, learning, listening, comparing things and players in your mind. It's not ultimately about this player being better than that player, this coach knowing more than that coach, this system being superior to that system or any of that stuff. To know football you've got to feel it, to sense it. First you've got to have thirst for knowledge, then you've got to have the patience to wait for all the pieces to fall into place in your head. From there you get understanding.

I've done a few things in my time, seen a few things and learnt lots. I know lots of things about lots of things and nothing about even more, but there isn't anything in my life I know more about, have more of a depth of understnading of I don't think than football. This is why the armchair thing doesn't work any better than the "go to the game" or the OOTer line. I could watch a game on hand held telly and I'd still understand what I'm looking at. Not just understand it, but feel it as well.

However much you think you know about football now, you'll hark back in ten years time and realise that you were clueless relative to what you know then. That's why it's such a great game.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:38 am

I'm less worried about the performances of our world-class players and more about the support squad. Gerrard, Torres, Masch, and Reina will generally dominate their areas of the pitch, all we need is to find consistent creativity in the wide positions, whether from proper wingers or overlapping backs, to give them the support they need to get about it.

A healthy Agger will also do wonders for the fluidity of the team. :nod

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:48 am

I dont rate Lampard really, I dont think hes as good as some claim him to be on here. He maybe marginally better the Barton, but in all honesty I couldnt give a feck.

One thing I will say though is, if you paid a thousand or few for a UEFA badge . Then come up with the idea that Crouch is s.*i*e, Pennants the one, Torres was a pu$$Y and dived everywhere, but now is world class braveheart, Alonso is world class and Mascha isnt.

I'd most certainly ask for a refund.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:50 am

Sabre wrote:
Masherano IMHO is one of our three World-class players. The other two are obvious (and sorry Sabes and Lando but Xabi isn't one of them) but although being the most debateable of the three, Masherano makes the cut for me.

I don't need Xabi being considered a world class player whatever that is. I do consider Alonso of the same league of Mascherano, and I couldn't possibly care about being in a minority or not. If it's a matter of saying it convinced, I will.

I'm fine with the praises Mascherano receives, I like any red receiving credit. As long as we don't get too carried away. And I say this for the benefit of Mascherano: I don't want another Alonso case in which in his first season words like "World Class", "Pass Maestro", etc, etc, etc, have become in a "Water Carrier" these days. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

My point is that I do not want those "Monster Mascha", "Mascheranator", and "World Class" comments converted in "Doesn't score enough goals", "He loses the plot" , "He's average at best" in two seasons. Because my hunch is that we do that often here -- except with Gerrard.

Saying that Gerrard would be picked in the 22 best PLAYERS of the world is nice from a Liverpool fan and for the record **I** agree that. But many may argue that should Gerrard was Spanish he wouldn't have a place in the starting eleven -- like Fabregas. In fact, I'll enter a Spanish general footie forum (not a club's forum but many club's forum) to state that Gerrard is better than any Spaniard for the sake of experimentation...

Also I have seen an "average-dull" player, so was described here, like Makelele doing nice things in England.

My point? World Class player is tough to define and probable it depends on who you ask to, and when. For instance if you ask in England who's the best starting eleven they'll pick many premiership players. In Spain? they'll do the same thing, they'll never consider Rooney over Villa for instance.

And that's why I only consider world class players those who prove to be at top level many years, like Gerrard. A World Class Player would be so in England and in Spain, and in Italy, no matter the kind of football you throw at him. Zidane has shown that. Gerrard haven't, and I hope he won't move from England to show that, but I'm sure that if he played in Spain, he'd be top top footballer aswell.

Sabes this is precisely why the World Class thing is a bit of a non starter as a debate. You've got some people saying it's if a player is in the top ten in the World in his position which would give the game over 100 World class players (this point of view is clearly mad but it has been mentioned recently). Then there is Stu's "only fifteen players in the World are world Class", my "squad of 22" or your "World class means at the top for a period of time". When we was kids and we used to collect the old football stickers, me Dad used to always say that "World Class" meant that if you asked a kid in Mexico about the player (feck knows why Mexico but there you go) they'd know all about him. It made sense then, but it wouldn't work today what with You Tube and the rest of the digital age.

All that said, your point about people over-reacting both to the positive and then the negative of players holds good. I've actually been thinking over this idea visa vis Masherano and indeed Alonso as well in the way he plays for Liverpool, are they luxury players? In the modern game, are central midfielders who practically never ever score a goal affordable? Well they are of course if Gerrard/Torres continue to find the net at the rate whcih they did last season, but what if they don't. It wouldn't be the biggest shock if the likes of Masherano came under scrutiny for his non-contribution in an attacking sense if push came to shove.

As I say and have said often, I really rate him as a defensive midfielder (Masherano) and think he has few if any equals. Ask him to do anything else though, and he is a bit limited (I kind of agree with Stu ijn this sense). Absolute specialists are OK in a team though, provided you create the structure which means they can concentrate on doing what they do best. Alonso has the ability to adapt by contrast, and if he stays I hope he is given tghe opportunity to do so.

by **JC_81** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:56 am

Fo Dne wrote:
john craig wrote:Stu mate behave yourself!!

You aren't going to convince a single person on here that Barton is better than Lampard, that's an outrageous claim.

I've never been Lampard's biggest fan, I think that his all round game has major deficiencies, and I don't think he's in the same league as players like Gerrard or Fabregas for example, but he has scored a lot of goals for Chelsea in the Premiership and Europe for several years now.

As a kid perhaps Barton may have had more raw talent than Lampard, or comparing them at age 18/19 maybe Barton was a quicker developer than Lampard (I don't know if this was true or not), but in the professional game there is no comparison really. Barton has done nothing and is destined to do nothing. Lampard has 2 league titles, lots of International caps and will probably get a chance to play for Inter Milan.

So ok then. By that reasoning, because Lampards acheived that, that makes Phil Neville a world beater. He's won everything, he's got over 40 England caps, he's played for two of the top clubs in the country.

You can't use a teams success to say how good a player is. Its . Its like saying Nicky Butt's better than Gerrard because of what he won at United, or Andy Cole was better than Fowler and Owen was because he won more. Or they were all better than Shearer because he didn't win much.

No-one denies Lampard can score goals, but that alone doesn't make you a great player. He very often floats through games and offers nothing yet pops up with a goal. Its very useful for Chelsea, he does what he's good at in a team and lets Essien and Makelele do the hard work but to compare him, as an individual to alot of midfielders he'd come of worse. There are easy 10 centre mids better in the league, there are probably another 5 or 6 where there's not alot in it.

People are blinded by his goals, quite simply watch England. You'll see how good he is for them. He's completely out of his depth everytime he pulls on the shirt weather he gets his goal or not.

Stop twisting what I've said mate :laugh:

Nicky Butt and Phil Neville did not play that significant a role in all the trophies United won, but Frank Lampard made a huge contribution to the two championships Chelsea won. That's the difference. Lampard didn't ride on the coat tails of Chelsea's success, he was one of the major reasons for their success.

And for the record I don't believe he is world class, but he has found a system at Chelsea that suits him and players around him that compliment him perfectly, getting the best out of him. I believe he will be a flop in Italy when that move eventually happens, just as he has been a flop for England. But he is still a better player than Barton by some distance.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:16 pm

Just a question - isn't Lampard the highest scoring midfielder in Premiership history along with Scholes?

If he is, that alone would be firm evidence that he's a top quality player - nowhere near as good as Scholes, or Gerrard for that matter, but a solid top quality midfielder nonetheless. Whilst he may not have much of a defensive side to his game, he hasn't needed one with Makelele and Essien in the team. Deco's never been defensively astute, but he seemed to be considered one of the best midfielders in the world a few years ago.

If you asked much of the football world; the very best managers, coaches and players alike, I'm fairly sure they'd endorse him as one of the better midfielders in the Premiership, well ahead of Barton. It's also worth noting that he came second only to Ronaldinho in the World player of the year and European player of the year awards a few years back.

FWIW, this shouldn't be interpreted as Lampard-licking, or Barton-bashing, it's just an opinion.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:32 pm

john craig wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
john craig wrote:Stu mate behave yourself!!

You aren't going to convince a single person on here that Barton is better than Lampard, that's an outrageous claim.

I've never been Lampard's biggest fan, I think that his all round game has major deficiencies, and I don't think he's in the same league as players like Gerrard or Fabregas for example, but he has scored a lot of goals for Chelsea in the Premiership and Europe for several years now.

As a kid perhaps Barton may have had more raw talent than Lampard, or comparing them at age 18/19 maybe Barton was a quicker developer than Lampard (I don't know if this was true or not), but in the professional game there is no comparison really. Barton has done nothing and is destined to do nothing. Lampard has 2 league titles, lots of International caps and will probably get a chance to play for Inter Milan.

So ok then. By that reasoning, because Lampards acheived that, that makes Phil Neville a world beater. He's won everything, he's got over 40 England caps, he's played for two of the top clubs in the country.

You can't use a teams success to say how good a player is. Its . Its like saying Nicky Butt's better than Gerrard because of what he won at United, or Andy Cole was better than Fowler and Owen was because he won more. Or they were all better than Shearer because he didn't win much.

No-one denies Lampard can score goals, but that alone doesn't make you a great player. He very often floats through games and offers nothing yet pops up with a goal. Its very useful for Chelsea, he does what he's good at in a team and lets Essien and Makelele do the hard work but to compare him, as an individual to alot of midfielders he'd come of worse. There are easy 10 centre mids better in the league, there are probably another 5 or 6 where there's not alot in it.

People are blinded by his goals, quite simply watch England. You'll see how good he is for them. He's completely out of his depth everytime he pulls on the shirt weather he gets his goal or not.

Stop twisting what I've said mate

Nicky Butt and Phil Neville did not play that significant a role in all the trophies United won, but Frank Lampard made a huge contribution to the two championships Chelsea won. That's the difference. Lampard didn't ride on the coat tails of Chelsea's success, he was one of the major reasons for their success.

And for the record I don't believe he is world class, but he has found a system at Chelsea that suits him and players around him that compliment him perfectly, getting the best out of him. I believe he will be a flop in Italy when that move eventually happens, just as he has been a flop for England. But he is still a better player than Barton by some distance.

How can you say they never played major roles when they played over 60 games between them? You simply used an arguement which I think is completely invalid when talking about individual players, you clearly stated what he's won etc.

Lampard is found wanting in ALOT of area's physically he's fit, but average strength, and very limited pace and agility, much like Barton, his passing is good and vision is good, again, like Barton. His shooting is better and finishing is better although Joey has an excellent shot and isn't exactly poor when given a chance, the thing is though Barton can tackle and has drive in his game, he can carry a ball and show aggression. Lampard doesn't. He never drives a team and often goes missing against better sides popping up with his world class penalty or deflected goal. Compare Lampard to Scholes for gods sake, they play in the same position, while Lampard's scored more goals I've no doubt look at the overall contribution of the players, theres not even a contest. Scholes is twice the player Frank Lampard will ever be or ever has been.

Lampard shoots on sight, its not the best way to play the game and doesn't show great ability. You've even admitted yourself he'll be a flop and will perform like he does for england. The fact is though people can't see past the "big four" and the rest rule. If you play outside that big four you can't possibly be any good. WRONG!

Joey Barton is a very very good player. Like I've said a million times, instead of sitting there telling me how :censored:

he is and how wrong I am try actually watching him as an individual. Infact, no don't bother, you already know don't you because you've seen him play properly loads of times and watched the lad play so many times....

:no

Watch what he does, watch what the others around him do. While watching, compare whether he spots the pass that Gerrard would have, compare what Gerrard would have done in the same situation, compare the person recieving the ball to Torres or any other Liverpool player. Compare everything, think about why he doesn't do something, why he does, does he take the player he's passing to's strengths into consideration etc etc etc.

Barton is better tactically than Gerrard as a pure central midfielder, he influences games in the middle of the pitch more than what Steven does in terms of knowing when to press, when to offer, when to play the short pass. Technically, there isn't a great deal of difference in the two, Gerrard pips it just. Physically, Gerrard's a monster. Barton isn't anywhere near Gerrard in this area... and in terms of mental attitude Gerrard is alot better off the pitch.

The difference is nowhere near as big as people make out. But obviously, no-one on here would have that, how could anyone be any good that doesn't play for a top four side? :laugh:

Its rediculous to think that isn't it...

The problem with Joey is there is no talkin to him. He's got a screw lose. Had he not had a screw lose he'd be playing for a top four side without a doubt. He's alot better than Carrick, Hargreaves, Lucas, Flamini, Gilberto and some of the other overated players at these teams. I actually think if Newcastle can keep him and Owen on the pitch and fit aswell as Guthrie, a fit Damien Duff and Given then they may suprise a couple of people this season.

I've said this for years about Gareth Barry aswell. Another player coming into the lime light all of a sudden. A player who again my opinion of hasn't changed at all and now people are talking about him being a great player etc. Craig Gardner at Villa also looks a decent prospect, yet I hear people bang on about Agbonlahor who's quite simply :censored:

but with a bit of pace and acceleration.

I can't even be arsed anyway, the fact is, to many people on here listen the media and think they know it all, they listen to these "football writers" and some of these pathetic attempts at managers and think they know what they are talking about.

The fact is, not one of you (with the exception of probably mick) have the slightest idea of what you're talking about and lack so much understanding of the game its unreal. The funny thing is, you sit there thinking you know it all, and you really don't, you have no idea how little you actually do know because none of you can ever be bothered to understand the very thing you spend your lives talking about.

:no

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:34 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Just a question - isn't Lampard the highest scoring midfielder in Premiership history along with Scholes?

If he is, that alone would be firm evidence that he's a top quality player - nowhere near as good as Scholes, or Gerrard for that matter, but a solid top quality midfielder nonetheless. Whilst he may not have much of a defensive side to his game, he hasn't needed one with Makelele and Essien in the team. Deco's never been defensively astute, but he seemed to be considered one of the best midfielders in the world a few years ago.

If you asked much of the football world; the very best managers, coaches and players alike, I'm fairly sure they'd endorse him as one of the better midfielders in the Premiership, well ahead of Barton. It's also worth noting that he came second only to Ronaldinho in the World player of the year and European player of the year awards a few years back.

FWIW, this shouldn't be interpreted as Lampard-licking, or Barton-bashing, it's just an opinion.

So now you're comparing Lampard to Deco?

:laugh:

Run along.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:40 pm

The fact is, not one of you (with the exception of probably mick) have the slightest idea of what you're talking about and lack so much understanding of the game its unreal. The funny thing is, you sit there thinking you know it all, and you really don't, you have no idea how little you actually do know because none of you can ever be bothered to understand the very thing you spend your lives talking about.

Like Aristoteles, all I know is that I know nothing.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:04 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Just a question - isn't Lampard the highest scoring midfielder in Premiership history along with Scholes?

If he is, that alone would be firm evidence that he's a top quality player - nowhere near as good as Scholes, or Gerrard for that matter, but a solid top quality midfielder nonetheless. Whilst he may not have much of a defensive side to his game, he hasn't needed one with Makelele and Essien in the team. Deco's never been defensively astute, but he seemed to be considered one of the best midfielders in the world a few years ago.

If you asked much of the football world; the very best managers, coaches and players alike, I'm fairly sure they'd endorse him as one of the better midfielders in the Premiership, well ahead of Barton. It's also worth noting that he came second only to Ronaldinho in the World player of the year and European player of the year awards a few years back.

FWIW, this shouldn't be interpreted as Lampard-licking, or Barton-bashing, it's just an opinion.

So now you're comparing Lampard to Deco?

Run along.

I'm saying you don't need to have a complete repertoire of skills in order to be a top quality player. With regards to Deco, I'm comparing the fact that he lacks any real defensive astuteness to that of Lampard. I'm not saying Deco's attributes all round are similar to Lampard's, as they're not.

If you want to continue to mock people with these silly posts, what's the point trying to discuss anything with you?

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:06 pm

Fo Dne wrote:The fact is, not one of you (with the exception of probably mick) have the slightest idea of what you're talking about and lack so much understanding of the game its unreal. The funny thing is, you sit there thinking you know it all, and you really don't, you have no idea how little you actually do know because none of you can ever be bothered to understand the very thing you spend your lives talking about....yet I hear people bang on about Agbonlahor who's quite simply but with a bit of pace and acceleration.

Kind of ironic given that Mick's also of the opinion that Lampard is in a different 'stratosphere' to Barton, and views Agbonlahor as a very good player.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:10 pm

Fo Dne wrote:The funny thing is, you sit there thinking you know it all, and you really don't, you have no idea how little you actually do know because none of you can ever be bothered to understand the very thing you spend your lives talking about.

little do you know how little i know about the little that i know.

if only i knew a little about the little you know i'd know a little.

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