Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:31 pm

TOMKINS: ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME TORRES?
Paul Tomkins 25 June 2008

Watching Liverpool players in Euro 2008 brings to mind the difficulties any manager faces when bringing new players to his club.

It's fairly clear that the Fernando Torres playing for Spain does not look like the player we see for Liverpool. And it's a common phrase in football: "He just doesn't look the same player." It often happens when a player is taken out of one environment and placed into another.

It brings to mind John Barnes playing for England. Exceptional for Liverpool in the late '80s, he just couldn't replicate his form for his country, even against moderate opposition. He wasn't treated the same by the fans, he had less licence to roam, and received far less of the ball.

Ian Rush at Juventus wasn't happy, confident and settled. He was a different player. The same is a risk every time a player joins Liverpool. If players as good as Barnes and Rush can suffer in different teams, then any player can.

A player is largely a product of his environment, and all the interactions therein; he does not act alone. He is helped to look good, or bad, by his own efforts, but also by his teammates and his manager, and a myriad other factors. Different diet, tactics, lifestyle, training, expectations, home life, teammates, crowd, philosophy, language etc, all impact on the player. All affect his psyche.

Torres for Spain is not playing against better defenders than he faced against Chelsea and Arsenal, yet he scored against those teams on three occasions. He is not playing against better defenders than he faced in Champions League games, but after a slow start he scored regularly in Europe for the Reds.

How the manager treats a player affects his confidence. When I watch Torres for Spain, I sense that he doesn't feel totally trusted by Luis Aragones, or comfortable in the style of play. It's like he has no idea when, or indeed if, a pass will ever come; his runs off the ball are less assured. The possession is so controlled, so patient, that at times it appears to have no aim other than keeping the ball. Cesc Fabregas has twice come on and been prepared to hit forward passes, but both times Torres has been taken off.

But that's not to say that Spain are wrong to play that way. Every team has its own way of playing. When it works for Spain they can take teams apart, and they are having their best tournament for 24 years. It's about what works for the team, and Torres has played a part, all the same, by occupying defenders and trying to make things happen when he gets a chance. He's a threat, a player who cannot be left unmarked. It's not that he's playing badly, just that he doesn't look the player we've grown accustomed to seeing.

It's like Steven Gerrard and the issue of his best position –– it's the result that counts, not the performance of a single individual. If Spain do well without getting the best out of Torres, where's the problem?

I laugh when I hear that Gerrard is 'wasted' on the right or playing behind Torres as it's 'not his best position'. Since when is a player getting a lot of goals, and creating even more, in a team that's doing well, a waste? In 2005-06 Liverpool were struggling until Gerrard moved to the right wing. Then last season, the best run of results came after Gerrard was moved into a semi-striker role, playing off Torres, for the last few months of the season.

In neither case it was purely down to where Gerrard played. But it was clearly a major factor. It wasn't his best position, but at the time, it was the best position for him in the team.

In any system, it's impossible to get 100 per cent out of every player. Someone's effectiveness –– particularly if we are talking about creative players –– will always be compromised somewhere along the line if players with similar skills are in the side. For example, play an exceptional right winger and the left winger might not get as many touches. And of course, for England, Lampard and Gerrard have shown that they cannot both play their natural game if they are paired together; one always has to hold off.

With Gerrard in his role behind Torres, you lose the box-to-box drive. So part of his game is compromised. But if Gerrard being at 80 per cent effectiveness –– which is still a hugely impressive talent –– enables Torres to be near to 100 per cent of his, then that can have a better overall result. Gerrard and Torres together seem to exceed the sum of already impressive parts.

It's all about the balance, and that includes players who are in the team to help others shine. Holland had some hugely talented wingers in reserve, but why did Marco Van Basten, a supreme individual talent as a player, keep picking Kuyt on the right, and keep getting results with him? Kuyt was a big part of the dismantling of world champions Italy and runners-up France.

Admittedly, Kuyt didn't last long against Russia, but Holland got a better 'result' -- were unbeaten -- when he was on the pitch. It was no coincidence that Torres said a few weeks ago that Kuyt's efforts for Liverpool were 'sensational' and that he was a player who helped him score so many goals.

Going back to a player's psyche, it was also no coincidence that Kuyt's form dipped after the death of his father. I wonder how many of us could shrug off such a major life-changing event, and the loss of our biggest supporter, particularly when we are still relatively new to a different country? But the man has character, and eventually he bounced back.

But there are still issues with Liverpool in wide areas that will be addressed this summer. From what I've observed, it seems that pace, and attacking verve, from full-back will be a key addition to the style of play next season.

With two holding midfielders, the full-backs become important for getting width, while the 'wingers' are then freed to drift infield to create chances or go for goal.

While Riise was a good attacking left-back, he was more inclined to drift inside to look to shoot rather than go outside his man. I felt Riise was under-appreciated at times, and certainly in 2005-06 he was extremely solid in the position, while a year later he scored some vital goals, particularly from left-midfield.

But he seemed to lose his way a tiny bit last season - and I can't say that I'll miss his free-kicks! After that wonderful one against Man United in 2001, he was sometimes more of a threat to the opposition's wall than its goal, although he did curl in a couple of peaches.

His one-footedness was also frustrating –– if only he trusted his right foot in the way he did at the Nou Camp, when he didn't have time to think. However, he gave his all, and I felt that he was, on balance, a very good player over the past seven years. But his exit is a sign of the changes taking place at the club this summer, as Benítez reshapes his squad.

Happily, it seems as if all of Rafa's key players are fully committed to the club –– unlike the Reds' three main rivals.

All are facing a lot of change this summer. Chelsea have a new manager, while they, Arsenal and Manchester United are fighting to hold onto key players who are looking to play elsewhere. Liverpool don't have that unrest. Some good players may leave, but Benítez will be keeping those he sees as important for his plans.

All three rivals will have money to spend as a result, should those moves come to fruition, and of course Chelsea have money to spend regardless. After a series of ins and outs they may all end up stronger. But it could take time, and with Flamini already gone, if players like Ronaldo, Hleb and Lampard follow, not to mention one or two others, it could leave weaknesses in those teams.

It took Hleb two years and Flamini three to get into their stride, so replacements won't necessarily slot straight in. But of course, those are their problems; from Liverpool's point of view, I expect a number of the younger players to do as that Arsenal pair did, and grow as players in the coming seasons.

While, like most Reds, I'm hoping for some quality additions, I'm looking to see players like Babel and Lucas, who improved as last season progressed, step up another gear, and two or three youngsters from the reserves to push harder for games after making waves last season.

The return of Daniel Agger will be like a new signing, too. His passing and movement with the ball from the back adds another dimension to Liverpool's play. I can't express how important I think Agger is, and how undervalued he is outside of the club.

And if Torres takes his goalscoring form from the second half of last season into the start of next season, I feel there's no need to get too uptight about what does or doesn't transpire in the transfer market.

by **SundanceKid** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:38 pm

Very releaving article. I was starting to hope he wouldn't turn out the same next season. Thanks for the post

by **Sabre** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Torres has not been brilliant, but neither poor.

Perhaps it shows me again why I was wrong with him. Mind you I love how Torres is moving, and making his runs, he has proven to me that even in a positional and static attack he has improved this year in Liverpool. Torres has shown to me that he had the will to improve at this stage of his career, he has the hunger to be better.

So, even in that kind of possession football, motivated by the fact that Spain is vulnerable and weak when we don't have the ball, Torres has been a better player than he used to be before joining Liverpool.

Quite simply, I judged Torres for what was back then in Spain, and I wasn't able to spot that he'd be a success in England.

I made my mistake due to a main reason:I don't know well enough the english game. Before the internet era I could watch it sometimes, in the internet era, regularly, but I still have a lot of things to know about english game -- and that's why I pay attention to opinions like Bigmick on Silva's stature, despite he still doesn't convince me in rotation.

Fortunately Rafa knows more footie and he was able to spot that the player that didn't break the bank in Spain, would be a massive success in England.

Torres is the same player. And Torres is learning everyday. If you want a good explanation of what's wrong with Torres with Spain, Scottbott explains it in the Spain thread, page 17 much better than Tomkins. There's nothing wrong with Torres.

by **Torres25** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:08 pm

Torres has been good in this tournament its just people soley judging some1 on goals again............besides the first game Villa has been poor in the 2 games that hes played in since...but this isnt mentoined because hes top scorer in the euros so naturally hes dominated every game hes been in

by **Sabre** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:33 pm

All are facing a lot of change this summer. Chelsea have a new manager, while they, Arsenal and Manchester United are fighting to hold onto key players who are looking to play elsewhere. Liverpool don't have that unrest.

Happy clappy or not, this is a fact.

by **dawson99** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:52 pm

of course, we do have just a little unrest in the boardroom i think, im sure i read it somewhere

by **bigmick** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:25 am

Sabre wrote:
All are facing a lot of change this summer. Chelsea have a new manager, while they, Arsenal and Manchester United are fighting to hold onto key players who are looking to play elsewhere. Liverpool don't have that unrest.

Happy clappy or not, this is a fact.

Absolutely right Sabes and lets hope we make full use of it. It would be nice if we really hit the ground running, making full use of the fact that we will be fielding a team whose main players are still in place and in which the individual members are largely familiar with each other.

My suspicion is though that if we don't again, and fail to challenge again, Tompkins's positive observation will be lost under a sea of alternative reasons why our challenge didn't actually come to pass.

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:28 am

Tomkins is full of sh1t TBH.

by **Dundalk** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:30 am

Ciggy wrote:Tomkins is full of sh1t TBH.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:14 am

Ciggy wrote:Tomkins is full of sh1t TBH.

Sometimes somebody comes along and sums up the whole situation in a couple of words. It's never ever me obviously, but Lynds manages it here no probs

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:28 am

Well I actually didnt mind reading this article, as it wasnt his usual over optimistic happy clappy view on the Reds. It was a pretty realistic read for once, lets hope he can keep his articles of this kind of mantra in future. I swear it, his articles usually gives the happy clappers around Newkit, rageing hardons and fills them with the balls and blindness to post such flowery tosh.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:14 am

Bamaga man wrote:Well I actually didnt mind reading this article, as it wasnt his usual over optimistic happy clappy view on the Reds. It was a pretty realistic read for once, lets hope he can keep his articles of this kind of mantra in future. I swear it, his articles usually gives the happy clappers around Newkit, rageing hardons and fills them with the balls and blindness to post such flowery tosh.

There is some irony in thee somewhere I am sure.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:18 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Well I actually didnt mind reading this article, as it wasnt his usual over optimistic happy clappy view on the Reds. It was a pretty realistic read for once, lets hope he can keep his articles of this kind of mantra in future. I swear it, his articles usually gives the happy clappers around Newkit, rageing hardons and fills them with the balls and blindness to post such flowery tosh.

There is some irony in thee somewhere I am sure.

Is this going anywhere sweetheart ?

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:48 pm

Ciggy wrote:Tomkins is full of sh1t TBH.

Just what I was about to write. I read about a paragraph of his rants and then get bored of his monotony. Just another pundit talking bollox. Ronaldo scored one goal for Portugal. I don't see him jumping on his back about it. Also, prolific scores like Shevshenko (at Milan) were hardly banging them in for their country either. What's your f*cking point, Tompkins?

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:12 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Tomkins is full of sh1t TBH.

Just what I was about to write. I read about a paragraph of his rants and then get bored of his monotony. Just another pundit talking bollox. Ronaldo scored one goal for Portugal. I don't see him jumping on his back about it. Also, prolific scores like Shevshenko (at Milan) were hardly banging them in for their country either. What's your f*cking point, Tompkins?

I think he was actually defending Torres, mate. He wouldn't be much of a happy clapper otherwise!

His point, in a nutshell, seems to be that even world beaters can be made to look ordinary when they play in teams that don't suit their strengths. What separates this article from some of his others, though, is that he actually goes on to say, so what? If one player isn't quite playing at their absolute highest level but the team is winning, what's the problem?

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