Liverpool FC Forum

by **hello_red** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:22 pm

Maybe the manc manager has but you have to think like this. how many targets has benitez had and not been able to get due to boardroom inactivity? Rafa has awnted players that would turn us around in the positons that we need serious quality ie the wings. What sir alex wnats sir alex gets, its not luike that here.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:26 pm

Sabre wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
bigmick wrote:It's an interesting take on things to add up funds spent before Rafa took over and conclude Fergie therefore had a "60 million start". Quite how Rafa was supposed to compete in Liverpool spending while he was manager of Valencia is something of a mystery to me but there you go.

Thompkins thinks most of the red fans are dumb sh1t..... He constantly manipulates stats to push his point...

All journos do. The difference with Tompkin is that he tries to kill the tension surrounding the club, where as other journos like to fuel the flames, the more problems the better.

I think the point he's making is that if you picked the Liverpool of 2004, that Liverpool needed more spending than the current one. That is, this team is a player or two away of being perfect, in 2004 instead you had to reconfigure all the midfield to surround Gerrard, and you needed to offload a lot of deadwood.

Manchester instead did big spending before and they haven't needed a massive reestructuration in the last years. I don't think that's a mad point make.

To be fair to Houlliers team, if I spent around £150million on players I would expect my team to be a little better.

Benitez for all the moaning about the cr@p he was left (by others not by Rafa)was lucky with the players he got. Carra, Hyypia, Finnan, Riise, Gerrard, maybe even Kewell. Thats OVER HALF A TEAM Sabre. Especially when you add Hamann who gave Rafa good service too.

So to say that Rafa's team needs less spending on it than Houlliers is a bit pathetic mate. Because HE HAS ALREADY SPENT A FKN FORTUNE.

Houlliers last season we finished 4th, any bets on where we finish this season.

I like Rafa, but it winds me up when people try to manipulate what has taken place. For one reason I don't think he needs anyone twisting the facts to make his achievements seem greater. He won the CL and FA cup, there is no need to twist facts.

If you want to twist facts, we won the CL in 2005, since which time we have spent over £100m on players and have only an FA CUP TO SHOW FOR IT. Surely that must mean we have gone backwards, that the players he has replaced where better than the "stars" he has brought in?

Now I know thats total b0llocks but so is the point you were trying to make.

When Benitez came he said after Owen left "We have the best strike force in the premiership." Baros, Mellor, Pongole, LeTallec and Cisse.

Have we got the best now? So who's spent their money better us or the opposition?

I THINK IT PRETTY MUCH IS A MAD POINT TO MAKE MATE

Houlliers last game

Dudek ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Hyypia ,Riise ,Murphy ,Hamann ,Gerrard ,Kewell ,Heskey ,Owen

6 players still first team squad, plus 1 player gave good service to Rafa, and 1 more that would still walk into our team if he was ever fit.

by **puroresu** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:31 pm

Rafa has had money. He may not of been able to get all the targets he wanted but hey who has? Most managers have to work with constraints. I wouldnt say Rafa has been left with no money and thats the reason for a poor 1st half of the season. How many fans in the summer were saying they were happy with the squad and thought we could challenge? From what I remember there was quite a few yet due to us failing again suddenly its cos the lack of funds. I was worried in the summer as again i thought the squad had more depth but I didnt think the side was really improved.

Man Utd generate more money than us. Thats been the case for years and just a fact that anyone coming to to club has to accept. Is it any surprise they can spend more? Chelsea have a super rich owner who can afford to spend as he pleases. Unless we had the same sort of person we just gotta accept we cant compete on the same level.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:53 pm

IMHO the mistake Rafa has made is not signing another top striker. That is what we have been missing all season, the chances have been there every game, and another striker with threat should also occupy the opposition to such an extent as to limit their attacks. Kuyt should have been that man, his stats before coming to Liverpool alluded to that so on paper a good signing, although the decision to buy a striker who is so slow off the mark is a bad one and was made by Rafa.

I don't advocate buying a sprinter, but in the EPL some pace is a must for a forward. Personally i would get shot of Voronin, Kuyt and Crouch and buy one top class forward, of the little i have seen Van Huntelaar has more pace and is direct, Diego another option, both show class and ARE better than what we have.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:08 pm

redtrader74 wrote:IMHO the mistake Rafa has made is not signing another top striker. That is what we have been missing all season, the chances have been there every game, and another striker with threat should also occupy the opposition to such an extent as to limit their attacks. Kuyt should have been that man, his stats before coming to Liverpool alluded to that so on paper a good signing, although the decision to buy a striker who is so slow off the mark is a bad one and was made by Rafa.

I don't advocate buying a sprinter, but in the EPL some pace is a must for a forward. Personally i would get shot of Voronin, Kuyt and Crouch and buy one top class forward, of the little i have seen Van Huntelaar has more pace and is direct, Diego another option, both show class and ARE better than what we have.

A few good points there mate, I especially liked this one.

and another striker with threat should also occupy the opposition to such an extent as to limit their attacks

I agree that our striker arn't good enough but think we could get away with losing 2 rather than all three, as I still feel Crouch would be useful in certain games.

Pace is an obvious advantage, but its the total lack of pace when we don't play Torres that destroys us. Slight difference maybe.

I think there are plenty strikers out there better than our fabulous trio.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:48 pm

But where exactly do I twist the facts or Tomkins for that matter?

When we have built the team, we've brought Alonso, Reina, Mascherano (on loan), Torres, Agger those are key players.

From the Houllier era we only had the legacy of Gerrard and Carra, that could be counted as key player, the other players are either decent or good but not key ones, not match winners. It's a fact we didn't have those match winners back then, it's a fact the likes of Torres cost money, and it's a fact Manchester already spent that money before 2004.

It's also a fact (I'm not blind) that Rafa has spent some dubious money in players that were not good enough, plus lots of young players that do not seem to be able to reach to the first team (Barragan, Insua (who's rumoured to be out to Spain in winter). Rafa has spent some dubious money and I won't deny that. But I think it's undeniable that Rafa has done a major investment to bring key players, and this investment was already done by Ferguson. We had the likes of Cisse to offload, where as they had the likes of Van Nistelrooy.

All must be said, Ferguson bought aswell some players that didn't seem to triumph in their team, like Heinze for instance, and I don't recall to have seen playing that Korean or CHinese they used to play yesteryear.

So I'm not saying Rafa is perfect, I'm just saying that in order to have a proper understanding and not a skewed one of the spending, you have to look aswell how much Ferguson spent before 2004, and what was the base of team he had in 2004 to build on.

If that's twisting something the facts, let me know.

BTW, did really say Rafa that about the task force back then? oh my. If that's the case he was wrong.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:49 pm

Sabre wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
bigmick wrote:It's an interesting take on things to add up funds spent before Rafa took over and conclude Fergie therefore had a "60 million start". Quite how Rafa was supposed to compete in Liverpool spending while he was manager of Valencia is something of a mystery to me but there you go.

Thompkins thinks most of the red fans are dumb sh1t..... He constantly manipulates stats to push his point...

All journos do. The difference with Tompkin is that he tries to kill the tension surrounding the club, where as other journos like to fuel the flames, the more problems the better.

I think the point he's making is that if you picked the Liverpool of 2004, that Liverpool needed more spending than the current one. That is, this team is a player or two away of being perfect, in 2004 instead you had to reconfigure all the midfield to surround Gerrard, and you needed to offload a lot of deadwood.

Manchester instead did big spending before and they haven't needed a massive reestructuration in the last years. I don't think that's a mad point to make.

The squad rafa took over isn't as bad as what you guys are making it out to be....

1)Dudek - Just worth the transfer fee and wages for what he did in the final
2)Finnan - great RB
3)Riise - Great 1st 3 years with the club
4)Carra - No comment needed
5)Hyppia - One of our best CB ever...And still is doing a great job now
6)Hamann - Huge reason why the champ league and FA cup finals were won
7)Smicer - All rounded midfield player...can create and score goals.
8)Pongolle & La Tellac - Brilliant youngsters...If rafa had shown them the same belief he had shown Kuyt...we might be talking about them how we are talking about ronaldo...
10)Baros - I don't care what anybody says...Baros was a better striker than Kuyt, Voronin and Morientes
11)Cisse - Goal threat....Scored goals whenever he played..But rafa didn't untilise him well.

So you see the squad left behind in 2004 was not as bad as what "some" people are claiming it to be... In fact,I would prefer Baros and Cisse anytime of the day instead of Voronin and Kuyt.

I have to add.....I like rafa a h.ell lot better than houllier... (Just look at my 2003 and 2004 postings...If you think i am harsh on rafa....you haven't see anything yet). Just think some ppl here give too much credit to rafa......

by **puroresu** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:53 pm

seems to me all this comparison to fergie's spending is just trying to find excuses for failure.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:55 pm

you shouldn't say that young players with potential are good buys, they are only good buys if the develop into good first teamers - remember le tellec and pongolle?

Rafa's buys have been poor overall. He obviously doesn't rate crouch anymore but Crouch,KUyt,Morientes,Babel,Penant cost about £45m and not one of them add/added anything and none of them are good enough to be regular first teamers in a league winning team.

Rafa's insane policy of rotation means he needs a big squad so he has to buy second rate players from the second tier of prices . If he was more sensible like Ferguson(who has had some bad buys but his big ones like Rooney,Van Nistleroy,Ferdinand,Ronaldo etc are all good first teamers.

That £45m could have bought Rooney(25m and RVN £18m but before Rafa's time) Better to have bought two class players than 5 players not good enough to win the league. I'm not saying those two players were needed just players of that very high standard.

I don't think Rafa will be here at the start of next season and if the owners feel the same they shouldn't be giving him more money to waste on second rate players to fit into his daft rotation policy.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:01 pm

puroresu wrote:seems to me all this comparison to fergie's spending is just trying to find excuses for failure.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:05 pm

Big Niall wrote:you shouldn't say that young players with potential are good buys, they are only good buys if the develop into good first teamers - remember le tellec and pongolle?

Rafa's buys have been poor overall. He obviously doesn't rate crouch anymore but Crouch,KUyt,Morientes,Babel,Penant cost about £45m and not one of them add/added anything and none of them are good enough to be regular first teamers in a league winning team.

Rafa's insane policy of rotation means he needs a big squad so he has to buy second rate players from the second tier of prices . If he was more sensible like Ferguson(who has had some bad buys but his big ones like Rooney,Van Nistleroy,Ferdinand,Ronaldo etc are all good first teamers.

That £45m could have bought Rooney(25m and RVN £18m but before Rafa's time) Better to have bought two class players than 5 players not good enough to win the league. I'm not saying those two players were needed just players of that very high standard.

I don't think Rafa will be here at the start of next season and if the owners feel the same they shouldn't be giving him more money to waste on second rate players to fit into his daft rotation policy.

We have 60 players (according to the commentator of the luton match)....... How many different type of team rafa wants to play ?

Well....what is done is done....

I would like to see rafa triming the squad to 30 first.. and more quality players being brought to bring the final number to 40....

But rafa has to act now.

by **stmichael** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:09 pm

I think it’s worth taking a look at what was happening at Man Utd before Rafa arrived at Liverpool.

From Fergusons arrival in 1986 until they won their first league title for 27 years in 1993 they won 1 F.A Cup, 1 Cup Winners Cup and 1 League Cup. That’s in 7 years. During that time they spent £11.3 million.

After they won the Premier League in 1993 until they did the treble in 1999 which is 6 seasons they spent £57 million. £30 million of which was on only 3 players.

From achieving the treble in 1999 until Benitez arrived in 2004 they won 3 more titles, an F.A Cup and spent a further £160 million. Of the players bought during that period only Saha, Dong and Ferdinand are still at the club.

This is from a club who in their previous 7 years had won 5 out of 7 Premier leagues, 1 Champions League, 4 F.A Cups and a League Cup. That's £160million over 6 years from a club in massive position of strength, prior to Benitez arriving at Liverpool.

After Benitez arrived they spent a further £106 million on top of that and have won the Premier League again and the league Cup.

We can debate the merits of who has spent what net figure, however I think the point many are missing is the position they were in for many years and what base Benitez was starting from.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:19 pm

puroresu wrote:seems to me all this comparison to fergie's spending is just trying to find excuses for failure.

No, failure is failure, and I must say this season is dissapointing.

This comparison is not an excuse for failure, but a defence for the man whose position is in danger. I don't think it's unfair to say this season is dissapointing, but I find unfair to consider Rafa's sacking now or this very summer.

I wouldn't like to have a case like Valencia who had a downfall after Rafa leaving.

Not sure if that would be the case, but I'd like to be very sure that he's not the right man for the job before sacking Rafa.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:35 pm

Spanish loyalties?

I'd love to see rafa's spending versus Wenger. Wenger rebuilt a whole team in three seasons for a fraction of what Benitez spent and now they can compete for the title playing attractive football (not seen at anfield since Roy Evans).

Maybe managers are like players, suited to certain leagues, Morientes and Diego Forlan were terrible in English league but good abroad. I don't think Benitez ever got to grips with english football.

Defo time for him to go in Summer - unless we go on a massive run and finish within five or six points of winners.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:01 pm

Sabre wrote:But where exactly do I twist the facts or Tomkins for that matter?

When we have built the team, we've brought Alonso, Reina, Mascherano (on loan), Torres, Agger those are key players.

From the Houllier era we only had the legacy of Gerrard and Carra, that could be counted as key player, the other players are either decent or good but not key ones, not match winners. It's a fact we didn't have those match winners back then, it's a fact the likes of Torres cost money, and it's a fact Manchester already spent that money before 2004.

It's also a fact (I'm not blind) that Rafa has spent some dubious money in players that were not good enough, plus lots of young players that do not seem to be able to reach to the first team (Barragan, Insua (who's rumoured to be out to Spain in winter). Rafa has spent some dubious money and I won't deny that. But I think it's undeniable that Rafa has done a major investment to bring key players, and this investment was already done by Ferguson. We had the likes of Cisse to offload, where as they had the likes of Van Nistelrooy.

All must be said, Ferguson bought aswell some players that didn't seem to triumph in their team, like Heinze for instance, and I don't recall to have seen playing that Korean or CHinese they used to play yesteryear.

So I'm not saying Rafa is perfect, I'm just saying that in order to have a proper understanding and not a skewed one of the spending, you have to look aswell how much Ferguson spent before 2004, and what was the base of team he had in 2004 to build on.

If that's twisting something the facts, let me know.

BTW, did really say Rafa that about the task force back then? oh my. If that's the case he was wrong.

Tompkins and yourself tried to indicate that Ferguson had a good side which he built on whereas Rafa had to start from scratch.

Thats rubbish.....Matchwinners - we had three when Rafa took over Kewell, Gerrard, Owen. We only have two now Gerrard and Torres with Kewell down as a possible.

Remember it was RAFA's PHYSIOTHERAPIST THAT FKD KEWELL UP, BEFORE GETTING SACKED.

I think Gerrard, Carra and Hyypia could be counted as key players since Rafa has been here, and maybe Finnan too seeing as Rafa has never managed to find an adequate replacement for him till this season.

As I say look at the team Houllier left, and look at Rafa's team now. The only "real" improvements have been a goalkeeper, and a stronger squad, not a stronger team.

Same back four,(Agger is certainly not better than the Hyypia of a couple of years ago) Hamann again was a great defensive midfield player and arguably was a better match for Gerrard. Same best player in Gerrard. Owen and Baros against Torres and Kuyt?

As I have and will keep saying £150million spent on players, you can EXPECT improvements.

So all the money that Liverpool spent before Rafa arrived is ignored, but all the money that Ferguson spent before and after Rafa arrived is included - sound fair? Rafa didn't start at Liverpool with nothing FFS.

If you have to look at how much Fergie spent before Rafa arrived, you also have to look at how much Liverpool spent before Rafa arrived or maybe we got Hyypia for free so he doesn't count?

Most of these players you dismiss went unbeaten all season in all cups. Won the FA CUP, UEFA cup, League cup (twice) regularly beat the other top sides, even away(something Rafa has had some difficulty with) and won the champions cup (super cup or whatever its called.)

Most of these players also won the CL under Rafa as well, so they couldn't have been THAT BAD.

and yes he did say that about our strike force.

The mancs finished 3rd the season before Rafa came (we finished 4th) and we managed to beat them at old Trafford. They were hardly some invincible team of superstars.

So yes I think both Tompkins and you are trying to twist the facts to suit your argument.

We had a decent team that was just not good enough. We have spent a lot of money and still have a decent team thats just not good enough. Those are the real facts that matter.

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