Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:40 am

LFC #1 wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Speaking of flops - Sylvain Wiltord.

In for £13m, out for a big fat f*cking ZERO.

Or Robert Pires? How much did that Frog magician make on his transfer? MINUS £6m.

But still - he's BRILLIANT in the transfer market, don'tcha know?

Agree on Wiltord but Pires? C'mon Lando he was one of the best players in the league when Arsenal were at their peak.

When Arsenal sold him he was on the decline and you wouldn't expect to make a profit on him anyway. Making profits on players isn't a good way to judge a transfer if that said player has been an integral part of winning you numerous trophies which would have been more beneficial financially than any possible sale of that player.

Maybe Arsenal have spent better than us in the last 10 years - but that's hardly Rafa's fault, is it, seeing as he's been here since 2004?

Rafa has spent better, in my eyes, since 2004. And he needed to, as we had less quality than Arsenal when he arrived.

But Wenger has spent badly plenty of times. Grimandi, Diawarra, Stephanovs, Cygan, Alliadiare, Boa Morte, Vivas, Kiwomya (was he his?) and others who haven't even been mentioned yet. Wiltord/Jeffers/Reyes = £37m.

The difference is that we notice the f#ck ups our managers make, but no one remembers Arsenal's failures. I mean, Sinama-Pongolle isn't considered a success, but f#ck me, he looks like Ian Rush next to Alliadiare.

Wenger has probably made about 10 really top-class signings, at a guess. Rafa has already made a few himself, with Alonso, Reina, Sissoko etc. Kuyt could well be more of a success next season aswell.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:43 am

Red Macgregor wrote:Wilhelmsson

Interesting points you raise but how do you know the roles of the manger in each transfer? Its just that to me its never that clear cut who does what other than I guess it changes with the personalities involved in each club?

It's probably not as clear cut as I might suggest, then again Parry's title is ‘Chief Executive’. I’ve always viewed the Chief Executive as the middle man between the Managers and the board of directors or the owners. Parry’s job is to carry and execute the wishes of the manager with the approval of the board. So I have always thought it was clear cut, the managers decides who he wants, the board fund money for the transfer which encompasses personal terms, agent fees etc and the Chief Executive carries out the deal and ties up any loose ends.

If I am wrong then I’d like to corrected, but that’s how I have always seen how the clubs works. I didn’t think the manager had complete sovereignty over the structure of the club and how it operates, I always presumed that there are checks and balances on the manager.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:34 pm

An interesting thread which has teetered on the edge of being ruined by some silliness but hopefully is back on track now.

For me I'm absolutely staggered that somebody could compare the transfer acumen of Houllier and Benitez and keep a straight face. I thought the Frenchman was a disaster for the club, the only virtue in my view was that he stabalised the club somewhat after the spice boy days. Other than that, particularly int he last couple of years I thought he was an embarassment.

As for the signings, rather than talk about this player or that player being "class", or having "greater attributes" probably the safest, fairest and most sensible way of judging players is whether or not their value goes up after you've signed him, or down. Now it's reasonable to assume for instance that Diouf was a poor buy, as we paid ten million for him and practically had to give him away. Similarly, Hyppia was fairly obviously an outstanding buy, 2.5 million and a really good first team player for many years. Unfortunately however, there were far too many disasters under Houllier. Cisse was of course a ridiculous signing, while salif Diao (Stu you can't be being serious surely when you mention him and Sissoko in the same sentence?) has now found his true level at Stoke City. Diouf of course went into the bargain bucket, as did Nicky Barmby and a whole host other non-entities. Hyppia was a good signing and a good spot (although he was being trailed by half the clubs in Europe at the time) and Hamman turned out to be a good buy (although at the time he was by no means cheap and could hardly be considered a bargain). Babbel had a choice of clubs in Europe to play for as he was on a Bosman and chose us, I would hardly count it as any great insight to take him on, and after that I'm struggling a bit. Finnan was a good buy I guess at 3.5 million, but once again he was running his contract down and was available cheap as a consequence. Everyone knew he was a solid right-back, and that is precisely what he is. Riise was probably a better pick and has appreciated in value, but for each of these successes (and lets be honest we are hardly talking Vierra or even Overmars type successes here) there was the Emile Heskeys of this world, the Bruno Cheyrous, it makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Benitez, whether or not people choose to rate the players he has bought has aquired players which by and large have appreciated in value. Don't rate Agger? well that's anybodies privilage but he is by my reckoning woth in excess of twice the five million pounds we paid for him. Sissoko a donkey and comparable to Diao? Well unless Juventus are sniffing around the training grounds of stoke City during the pre-season, it would appear that most observers don't agree. Once again, a player who has doubled in value. Crouch would be another who would go for a figure almost twice what we paid for him, similary Alonso. Bellamy will be a profit situation, Pennant would be a money back one, and we would make money as well on the very unfairly maligned Kuyt if we sold him on. Reina obviously would go for far in excess of what we paid, while Garcia is probably a small loss but I defy anyone to say he was a bad buy. Morientes, Gonzales and Zenden are the obvious three numpties, along with blokes like Pelligrino, Kromkamp and Josemi who were practically freebies.

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:48 pm

A couple of points...

Redrider wrote:1. Rafa has had plenty of money to play with, it has been his choice to sign many mediocre players rather than a smaller nr of great players.

So what is Rafa to do when the budget is tight and the needs are great? Sign one big name player and ignore the other gaps? Last summer we needed two strikers to replace Cisse and Morientes, plus wingers. Should Rafa have just said fook it, put all the transfer money into a single pot and signed David Villa to play up front while ignoring the other holes in the squad?

2. You are correct, all of the big name managers have been close to failure in their early years, but that is exactly what we are saying, this looks like the make or break year for Rafa coming up. Rafa has had no big name failures, only because he has not signed any yet. But he has certainly had his share of failures in the <£5m region.

Most of his small money failures were stop-gaps--players signed from Spain on the cheap as back-up to first teamers as insurance against injury and to push the first teamers to keep sharp. Josemi was a dreadful RB but he made sure Finnan didn't grow too complacent, same was true with Pelligrino and Hyypia.

3.Only Alonso can claim to be the real deal, Agger has potential and Mashcerano is only here on loan, we may yet lose him.

Reina? Crouch? Fowler? Garcia? Sissoko? We've reached 2 CL finals in 2 years with these players...they can't all be mediocre.

4. Rafa's transfer dealings by comparison with other club's look extremely clumsey. Others, have made their big deals already and very swiftly - Barca, only took a weekend to clinch the Henry deal.
Having started a week ago, Rafa appears to be staggering towards a deal for Torres, which must be upsetting for the LFC Players, who must all be wondering who will be next to be offered as a makeweight.

You've got no idea what's been going on behind the scenes. It looks like the Henry deal started and finished in the space of a weekend but Barca have been after him for over a year and there was surely a lot of negotiating going on in the last few weeks. Don't tell me Arsenal just decided to accept 16 million for him on a whim last Friday. Point is, you've got no idea how Rafa is conducting himself in the transfer market.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:49 pm

The difference in class between Houllier and Rafa is immense. Almost every season under Houllier I was expecting a top-four finish, but never a title challenge, perhaps apart from 2001/2002.

In the last Houllier seasons I was just grateful that we scraped inot Europe through the final CL place, and we should also remember that Houllier didn't even get us there in the season before his last. And do you guys think we could have won the Champions League under Houllier? Not in my wildest dreams.

Another thing is the difference between the Chelsea of the Houllier days and the Chelsea of the Rafa days. They're a totally different team nowadays but Rafa's still got us comfortably in the top three for two seasons running now and challenging for trophies every season. Under Houllier we were eliminated from the UEFA Cup by the might of Celtic and Marseille in consecutive years...

Before you all jump on me, I love Houllier to bits, especially the fact that he almost lost his life whilst in the job. He modernised the club, made the English players professional, and bought some quality foreigners.

But he hit a wall. His limitations were reached, whereas Benitez can still take Liverpool a lot further, having already won one of the two big trophies we crave.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:52 pm

Emerald Red wrote:Are you stoned? We'd the best defence in the league last season and you cite Aggar as not being a excellent player? And the others, Momo, Kuyt and Crouch. I'd say these are pretty excellent squad players. Name me a better forward that works as hard as Kuyt does when we don't have the ball. Not exactly prolific, but he runs his heart out for the team.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 pm

bigmick wrote:An interesting thread which has teetered on the edge of being ruined by some silliness but hopefully is back on track now.

For me I'm absolutely staggered that somebody could compare the transfer acumen of Houllier and Benitez and keep a straight face. I thought the Frenchman was a disaster for the club, the only virtue in my view was that he stabalised the club somewhat after the spice boy days. Other than that, particularly int he last couple of years I thought he was an embarassment.

As for the signings, rather than talk about this player or that player being "class", or having "greater attributes" probably the safest, fairest and most sensible way of judging players is whether or not their value goes up after you've signed him, or down. Now it's reasonable to assume for instance that Diouf was a poor buy, as we paid ten million for him and practically had to give him away. Similarly, Hyppia was fairly obviously an outstanding buy, 2.5 million and a really good first team player for many years. Unfortunately however, there were far too many disasters under Houllier. Cisse was of course a ridiculous signing, while salif Diao (Stu you can't be being serious surely when you mention him and Sissoko in the same sentence?) has now found his true level at Stoke City. Diouf of course went into the bargain bucket, as did Nicky Barmby and a whole host other non-entities. Hyppia was a good signing and a good spot (although he was being trailed by half the clubs in Europe at the time) and Hamman turned out to be a good buy (although at the time he was by no means cheap and could hardly be considered a bargain). Babbel had a choice of clubs in Europe to play for as he was on a Bosman and chose us, I would hardly count it as any great insight to take him on, and after that I'm struggling a bit. Finnan was a good buy I guess at 3.5 million, but once again he was running his contract down and was available cheap as a consequence. Everyone knew he was a solid right-back, and that is precisely what he is. Riise was probably a better pick and has appreciated in value, but for each of these successes (and lets be honest we are hardly talking Vierra or even Overmars type successes here) there was the Emile Heskeys of this world, the Bruno Cheyrous, it makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Benitez, whether or not people choose to rate the players he has bought has aquired players which by and large have appreciated in value. Don't rate Agger? well that's anybodies privilage but he is by my reckoning woth in excess of twice the five million pounds we paid for him. Sissoko a donkey and comparable to Diao? Well unless Juventus are sniffing around the training grounds of stoke City during the pre-season, it would appear that most observers don't agree. Once again, a player who has doubled in value. Crouch would be another who would go for a figure almost twice what we paid for him, similary Alonso. Bellamy will be a profit situation, Pennant would be a money back one, and we would make money as well on the very unfairly maligned Kuyt if we sold him on. Reina obviously would go for far in excess of what we paid, while Garcia is probably a small loss but I defy anyone to say he was a bad buy. Morientes, Gonzales and Zenden are the obvious three numpties, along with blokes like Pelligrino, Kromkamp and Josemi who were practically freebies.

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

All of the bad signings you mention during the start of Houllier's fourth season.

I wasn't happy with the Barmby signing, but he certainly wasn't a bad player. Now get a :censored:

grip.

Benitez is yet to sign as many quality players for LFC as Houllier did. FACT!

by **Alonso14** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:47 pm

People don't seem to understand that Fooballers values are dependant on more then what someone is willing to pay. You can't say that we could get are money back on Pennant or even gain profit on Bellamy, because it is very likely that only a team like West Ham will be willing to buy them for that much money and that a club that niether would sign for, they would rather sit on the bench at Liverpool.

Its the same with Henry, if he said 'I want to leave and Im not bothered who I sign for', then there would of been a huge bidding war probably reaching into £50m. But he didn't he only wanted to play for Barca.

Players have more and more power now a days.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:57 pm

Here's a question then - do you think we should sign a few top notch players for big £15m+ or sign more mediocre players for £6m+ ? My main criticism of Rafa is he's spent a lot of money on decent players when I'd rather have better quality. We're no closer to sorting out our striking situation yet Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy cost £23m between them. Yet some still think Owen for £9m might be a bad idea

But it is a lot better than Houllier signing young french players who Rafa has been systematically offloading because they haven't come up to scratch. A lot of money wasted in that process when our youth team has produced some of our more saleable talents of recent years - Matteo, Fowler, Thompson, Owen, Gerrard, Carragher, Wright................. I really must complete that assessment of the buys of Houllier and Benitez.

by **ICE-MAN** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:58 pm

I know this isnt a rafa versus houllier debate but i gotta agree with st michael, houllier did take us as far as he could and not in a million years would he have won the champions league with us never mind getting to the final twice in 3 years, rafa has a lot more ability than houllier and i think and hope that that ability will be the premier league in the next year or two!

Sometimes im not in favour of his rotation but at the end of the day we play some amount of games and the demands on the players are crazy so its best for them!

getting back to his transfer policy, no way could he have bought 3/4 great players rather than 8/9 squad players, u have to take injuries/rotation into account, say 2/3 of those great players get injured at the same time, very possible, then where does that leave us??? our squad is much stronger now than when houllier left us and rafa rightly pointed out that now we need one or two quality additions cos the foundations are there, so lets just wait n see who he manages to bring! Altho i must admit i dont think parry is up to the job and is at fault for missin out on a few signings, heres a thought, is it possible to have a team of people like 2/3 guys like parry to do all negotiating etc with maybe parry in charge! Makes sense!!! :cool:

by **grayghost** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:10 pm

bigmick wrote:An interesting thread which has teetered on the edge of being ruined by some silliness but hopefully is back on track now.

For me I'm absolutely staggered that somebody could compare the transfer acumen of Houllier and Benitez and keep a straight face. I thought the Frenchman was a disaster for the club, the only virtue in my view was that he stabalised the club somewhat after the spice boy days. Other than that, particularly int he last couple of years I thought he was an embarassment.

As for the signings, rather than talk about this player or that player being "class", or having "greater attributes" probably the safest, fairest and most sensible way of judging players is whether or not their value goes up after you've signed him, or down. Now it's reasonable to assume for instance that Diouf was a poor buy, as we paid ten million for him and practically had to give him away. Similarly, Hyppia was fairly obviously an outstanding buy, 2.5 million and a really good first team player for many years. Unfortunately however, there were far too many disasters under Houllier. Cisse was of course a ridiculous signing, while salif Diao (Stu you can't be being serious surely when you mention him and Sissoko in the same sentence?) has now found his true level at Stoke City. Diouf of course went into the bargain bucket, as did Nicky Barmby and a whole host other non-entities. Hyppia was a good signing and a good spot (although he was being trailed by half the clubs in Europe at the time) and Hamman turned out to be a good buy (although at the time he was by no means cheap and could hardly be considered a bargain). Babbel had a choice of clubs in Europe to play for as he was on a Bosman and chose us, I would hardly count it as any great insight to take him on, and after that I'm struggling a bit. Finnan was a good buy I guess at 3.5 million, but once again he was running his contract down and was available cheap as a consequence. Everyone knew he was a solid right-back, and that is precisely what he is. Riise was probably a better pick and has appreciated in value, but for each of these successes (and lets be honest we are hardly talking Vierra or even Overmars type successes here) there was the Emile Heskeys of this world, the Bruno Cheyrous, it makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Benitez, whether or not people choose to rate the players he has bought has aquired players which by and large have appreciated in value. Don't rate Agger? well that's anybodies privilage but he is by my reckoning woth in excess of twice the five million pounds we paid for him. Sissoko a donkey and comparable to Diao? Well unless Juventus are sniffing around the training grounds of stoke City during the pre-season, it would appear that most observers don't agree. Once again, a player who has doubled in value. Crouch would be another who would go for a figure almost twice what we paid for him, similary Alonso. Bellamy will be a profit situation, Pennant would be a money back one, and we would make money as well on the very unfairly maligned Kuyt if we sold him on. Reina obviously would go for far in excess of what we paid, while Garcia is probably a small loss but I defy anyone to say he was a bad buy. Morientes, Gonzales and Zenden are the obvious three numpties, along with blokes like Pelligrino, Kromkamp and Josemi who were practically freebies.

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

Totaly agree with every thing you have said in your post, Benitez and Houllier come on one is the most wanted manager in euope and the outher is i don't know were. Where is he anyway.

GH had the most prolific scoring partnership in Owen and Fowler but chose to use that fooking waste of space Heskey then he signed a class player in Litneman and does;t play him because he gave Heskey stiking lessons after trainig. Hello trying to give the meff a hand.

When RB took over there was no Fowler and Owen he had just left he had Cisse and Baros and we won the CL with most of the left overs from GH era who suddenly looked like they may have had some talent (Biscan)

GH turned us into the most boring team in the prem with his defensive football. Am not saying we play some great stuff now but you can see a rearly strong attacking side below the surface on rare occasions (Just look at the Arsenal game at anfeild in the prem)

We have CL football every season with Rafa that was not the case under GH we won the CL FA cup and anouther CL final in 3 seasons come on get your head out of you @rss and look at the facts.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:16 pm

Alonso14 wrote:People don't seem to understand that Fooballers values are dependant on more then what someone is willing to pay. You can't say that we could get are money back on Pennant or even gain profit on Bellamy, because it is very likely that only a team like West Ham will be willing to buy them for that much money and that a club that niether would sign for, they would rather sit on the bench at Liverpool.

Its the same with Henry, if he said 'I want to leave and Im not bothered who I sign for', then there would of been a huge bidding war probably reaching into £50m. But he didn't he only wanted to play for Barca.

Players have more and more power now a days.

You are correct, what is one person’s valuation of a player is not necessarily another person’s valuation. There are many things to consider when making a valuation of a player; these include length of contract, age, consistency, a competitive transfer market and the stature of the club the player belongs to.

It’s not as simple as saying Crouch has moved up a level and therefore he is worth £14m compared to the £7m we paid for him two years ago. The individual valuation of a player by a manager should not dictate the price range of a player. Benitez values Bellamy at £12m. I doubt many clubs will be willing to pay this kind of money, who would pay £14m for Peter Crouch when someone like Henry has just gone for £16m?

A player does in effect control his own career and where he wants to go and if a player has his eyes on a club of preference then you can be sure he’ll head to the destination i.e. Hargreaves to United and Henry to Barcelona. However you have failed to mention the fact that a club with a large stature or a club with a substantial stature within the game can hold other clubs to ransom over transfer prices.

The reason Henry went for £16m is because of his age and the fact he spent much of last season on the injury table and of course Barcelona probably used their stature to their advantage. Wenger (with the aid of hindsight) will regret not placing Henry on the shop window last summer, the price he could have gotten for Henry would have been astronomical.

by **Redrider** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:19 pm

bigmick wrote:Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

That's a bit strong !
In theory we may be able to raise more than we paid for most of his buy's, if we sold them all today!
But apart from Alonso and Agger, none of them look to be more than stop-gap players who are around until the real deal becomes available.
The day's of picking up a Rush or a Keegan cheaply and watch them blossom are long gone and Rafa has not shown any ability in that area, with his low cost purchases.

by **jaytoothetee** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:28 pm

i've heard both sides of the argument and the way i see it,

1. houllier and benitez have comparable records in the transfer market. they have both signed good players as well as some awful ones.
2. as has wenger. name me one manager who never signed a bad player. that manager doesn't exist.
3. it is anyway irrelevant to compare each and every manager the club has ever had. it won't change anything and houllier and benitez have both done only what they believed was right for the club at the time.

and now we have left all that b0llocks behind,

4. we have a good squad atm. for me 2-3 quality signings will sort out our first eleven, leaving us to sign a couple of decent backup players.
5. we don't as stu suggested, need 6 new first teamers. you can't have world class players in every position. just won't work, for whatever reason. take the scum as an example. they won the league last season with the likes of darren fletcher, wes brown, john o'shea in the squad. the likes of giggs, ronaldo etc. won them the league.
6. and as much as i hate to admit, united have some great players. no getting around that, and this summer we need to bring in players of at least simao's quality to take us to the next level and be able to compete with united and chavski.

anyway, this thread is way off topic. it was about rafa's ability in the transfer market, and spotting talent. not anyone else's, or where the squad is weak. fwiw, i do think rafa has the ability to spot talented youngsters or bargain players who will come good. i'll tell you next year whether or not he can judge the £20m+ players. i also believe he is much more competent in the transfer market with respect to negotiations than parry ever will be (i know this because of my obviously extensive knowledge of the transfer market and how liverpool fc go about their dealings. i may even know as much as stu :eyebrow

)

by **stmichael** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:34 pm

Another point to make is Rafa's ability to make current players better than they were before he arrived. Benitez made Carragher a great central defender (he was a good player before but not great) and has revitalized Finnans career too.

The net outlay thing is actually very important. Basically Benitez has had to sell to buy. Unlike Chelsea who spend at will and Ferguson has been building this new team for roughy 3/4 years with the ability to spend apparently 40 Million on Rooney(which as you may notice is basically our entire net outlay in the Benitez era).

The point is that Rafa, in order to build a new team, had to sell much of the old one. So it depended on how much he could get. In the case of Cissé that's been nothing so far! He had to dismantle a squad full of dead wood and some wasters plus deal with two players who didnt want to be at the club - Gerrard and Owen. At the same time he has had to build a large squad to deal with [theoretically] 60 games a season and also a first team capable of challenging for honours. All this while still trying to win cups, which he has done by reaching 4 finals in 3 years.

Yes it's true we don't need a team of world beaters but there comes a time when you can't go any further with the squad youve got. A time when either you've got the quality or you aint. No amount of coaching, tactics or motivation will change that. United and Chelsea have raised the bar so high that the only option Arsenal and ourselves have is to spend big money on individual players. We haven't had a chance to do that and have missed out on too many players for it to be a coincidence.

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