Liverpool FC Forum

by **puroresu** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:42 am

Ydde wrote:
puroresu wrote:We need more creativity in the side. More flair and guile. There are only a small amoutn of players that posess that something extra which we are lacking. Those are the WC players and without that something extra we will not close the gap on the top two.

Someone who has the ability to beat 2 or 3 players right at the heart of the defence would be nice.

World class players do a make a difference. This cant be denied. It was Ronaldo who had that something extra for Utd. I was Drogba who kept Chelsea in the hunt for the title. It was Kaka who managed to take Milan to the CL. We dont need wholesale changes however we do need more genuine quality. For me we need a LW, a striker, a RW (If Gerrard will no longer be played there) as Pennant isnt good enough. 2 fullbacks for me as well as we need more dynamism from our full backs. Finnan is solid and very good but going forward his not great. Risse will score goals but defensivly his not great. These days Full backs need to be more like wingers who contribute going forward just like a winger and we dont have these qualities in our Full back positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are talking about adding a LW, a RW, A Striker, and 2 Fullbacks.

That's 5 players! That to me, is wholesale changes to a team. And you yourself said that there are only a small amount of players that have that something extra, so I think that asking for 5 world class players is a bit too much, no?

I dont mean 5 World class players for all those postions. I think we need to buy in all those positions. It doesnt mean 5 people to come straight in the side but we need more options.

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:47 am

This thread has meandered along and there are some very good points. I think I can echo what Saint was saying about Alonso, he's a top player but along with everybody in the squad except Gerrard and maybe Carragher, if he was what was needed to get Eto I would do the deal. It's important that people are clear on this point, it's not a comment on the relative abilities of the midfield man. If Barca came in and said, "we don't want Alonso but we'll take any one of Masherano/Sissoko/Agger/Garcia plus a sensible amount of cash in part X for Eto", fine lets do a deal. I reiterate what I said earlier, I'm glad we've re-signed Xabi but I hope it's not at the expense of us bringing in a really top-class striker.

by **puroresu** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:48 am

Sabre wrote:
In my opinion, we need a consistent creative forward who will not lose possession

Do you know who led the stats of lost balls last season in La Liga? Ronaldinho Gaucho.

There are some positions in which giving away balls is easier. Attacking mids and strikers always lead this stats. It's the tax you have to pay for LG. 13 goals, quite a lot of assists, and he gives away balls. It's just natural. A lost ball is not much of a problem in certain areas of the pitch, while, losing it in the Alonso position with 6 men on front of him is a disaster.

I think the giving away balls point is stressed too much if we take in consideration what's the role of lil Luis. Leiva? I don't know, they say he's good.

Surely if u compared the amount of dribbles Dinho does to Garcia it will be a huge difference. Dinho will always lose posession due to the way he plays. Garcia just tends to give the ball away due to mis places passes and bad decision making. I have seen plenty of times where we are in great positions in the final 3rd then it all breaks down due to Garcia either by passing poorly or trying something silly which doesnt come off.

You cant argue with his goal tally but is he really the solutution over a season? How many times can one say Garcia was the best player on the pitch today? Not many.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:54 am

Yes Ronaldinho's driblings numbers are higher. His smiles numbers aswell, and passes while he's looking to other side of the pitch are higher as well.

But when he hasn't the ball, he walks. I don't think he'd be what we need.

As for Bigmick's comment, I don't know whether we're going to bring a top class striker, but I don't think that will depend on putting a midfielder into the equation. Whether we can sign one or not, will have to do with the desire of the owner club to sell, and the desire of the player to leave, and the offer that is made. Hopefully the new owners will make good his OWN words and will bring snoogy doogy if necessary. (1)

But it would be sad IMHO to have kept players for 3 years, and once you're SUPPOSED to have money, start selling players to strenghten other positions. I'd like to keep, and then buy. And if we have to sell, then let it be not a key player, that's to say, a LG, a Sissoko. Not Gerrard.

(1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlTjeJha7BE

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:56 am

I agree with Sabre here especially as we're a team who struggle to score goals from midfield. Just look at our midfield this season, goal shy to say the least. As annoying as he can be to watch, and I catergorically state him as an enigma he does pop up with his fair share of goals.

He's not the best in the world at what he does but is good and can be brilliant at times. Our midfield personel is way out of wack well last year anyway and that was down to injuries mostly but, we had the likes of Masha, Xabi and even Momo who are better at nulifying (sp) the opposition than scoring goals. Then we have Gerrard who can do a bit of everything, Pennant who offers width and crosses, and then we have Garcia and Kewell who both offer a goal threat. So three midfielders from a strong seven who can offer goals realisticly from midfield, but two of them were missing for large chunks of the season and it showed. I still think we could do with either a LW or a RW who will add goals to the team and not defensive insurance.

If we lost Garcia now and didnt replace him, which is very unlikely again you can look to this season gone to see what effect it will have on scoring and beating teams.

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:03 pm

The other interesting thing now Xabi has signed is going to be whether he gets to try again on his partnership with Gerrard. I've mentioned previously that my hunch is that Mascherano currently fits better with the captain in the centre, but were Xabi to rediscover form which was anything like that which he showed in his first season in a red shirt (and sorry but it is my opinion he has been absolutely nowhere near it of late) then Alonso/Gerrard may well work better. Curiously however, if Xabi were to get back to somewhere near his best it would negate the necessity to move Gerrard back into the middle, as the Spaniard is a wonderful player when on song and is also the best in the business at bringing Gerrard into the game from on the right, where I still feel the captain can do most damage.

The feeling persists though that to achieve this, Xabi is going to have to take the ball on the half turn more to avoid getting pinned in posession. He is also going to have to re-invent himself a touch so that he covers much more ground up and down the pitch than he has previously, and even go out of his comfort zone by going much more box to box. This is the case if he plays with gerrard, and even more so if he plays with Masherano.

by **Ydde** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:05 pm

puroresu wrote:Surely if u compared the amount of dribbles Dinho does to Garcia it will be a huge difference. Dinho will always lose posession due to the way he plays. Garcia just tends to give the ball away due to mis places passes and bad decision making. I have seen plenty of times where we are in great positions in the final 3rd then it all breaks down due to Garcia either by passing poorly or trying something silly which doesnt come off.

You cant argue with his goal tally but is he really the solutution over a season? How many times can one say Garcia was the best player on the pitch today? Not many.

I agree with puroresu. We cannot argue with Garcia's goal tally, nor the importance of some of the goals. However, Ronaldinho over the course of a season surely offers more moments of brillance than hair tearing frustration that Garcia offers quite a bit.

But then again, to find players of Ronaldinho is not exactly easy. So the question is, we need a creative Forward better than Garcia, or who offers more.

No realistic targets comes to mind unfortunately, any ideas anyone?

by **stmichael** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:06 pm

Would anyone be happy with us blowing £30-40M on Eto'o or did anyone realistically think we would get him? He doesn't seem to want to leave Barcelona so it would be even harder to get him than if he was desperate to leave (Mind you he might change his mind again if they don't win the league next week). Add to that his complicated registration where Real Madrid own his right leg and his left boll#ck it would probably take Liverpool all summer to get him going on the club's past performances.

I'd be happy spending £20M on a quality striker Tevez, Torres, depending on what is available and buy 2 wingers for £10M, Malouda/Quaresma/Alves if there is any other cash available we could buy a back up defender. Not doing the usual quantity not quality like past seasons.

I think Eto'o is very unrealistically priced even though he is very good. Buying 2 players for £10M and boosting the squad numbers is not like buying cheap players or getting Zenden on a free.

Even if we do get players on a free it is no reflection on their ability, I remember Marcus Babbel being a bargain before he became ill and can't recall us paying anything for Gary Mac. Our fans have never been like Real Madrid's where they will only renew their season tickets if they are promised a big money superstar signing and we shouldn't start now.

Think its safe to say Trezeguet is available - 1 year left on his contract so should be available pretty cheap.

One lazy f#cker and certainly not a Rafa type of player but he always seems to score.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:07 pm

In my opinion, we need a Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldinho type player who will CONSISTENTLY link up play more often than breaking down the link between midfield and attack - LG does not fit this the bill over the course of an entire League season

I think your right there to an extent, but we shouldnt get rid of him just for the sake of it. I'd like Tevez signed for the primary position that we're talking about here, but Garcia would make a a very good back up in that position. He does give the ball away alot, but like football managers told me in my younger days

(I'm not that old :laugh:

) you'd rather lose position up the field rather than infront of your own goal. I know goals can be scored by good sides from deep positions, but I think thats one of the things you have to accept with 'Lil Luis'. The amount of times I've burst a blood vessel watching him, or have ended up pulling my hair are numerous, but at the moment he is one of only a few who can score and assist goals from the midfield, so until we can improve on him he still has a vital part to play IMO.

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:08 pm

As for Luis Garcia, I've always been something of a fan to be honest. His movement and anticipation would be the best at the club now Fowler has gone, and if he plays he will always score goals regardless of how many times he loses posession. If you attack, Garcia will be open in the box very often and the law of averages says he will score. It is a little unfortunate that he is quite so lightwieght and profligate in posession because I am certain the manager would have considered him as an out and out front man alongside a Crouch or a Kuyt before now. Like I said, now Fowlers gone he would probably be the most natural goalscorer in the team.

I must admit he can be an annoying little fecker at times though

by **Ciggy** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:10 pm

Whats the bet Owen comes back?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:12 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I agree with Sabre here especially as we're a team who struggle to score goals from midfield. Just look at our midfield this season, goal shy to say the least. As annoying as he can be to watch, and I catergorically state him as an enigma he does pop up with his fair share of goals.

He's not the best in the world at what he does but is good and can be brilliant at times. Our midfield personel is way out of wack well last year anyway and that was down to injuries mostly but, we had the likes of Masha, Xabi and even Momo who are better at nulifying (sp) the opposition than scoring goals. Then we have Gerrard who can do a bit of everything, Pennant who offers width and crosses, and then we have Garcia and Kewell who both offer a goal threat. So three midfielders from a strong seven who can offer goals realisticly from midfield, but two of them were missing for large chunks of the season and it showed. I still think we could do with either a LW or a RW who will add goals to the team and not defensive insurance.

If we lost Garcia now and didnt replace him, which is very unlikely again you can look to this season gone to see what effect it will have on scoring and beating teams.

Which is back to my point about where can/could we afford to lose a player, midfield where we have 5, or attacking midfield/second striker where we have Garcia, Kewell (when fit) or Gerrard (not his best position).

I would like to believe that we will get the money for snoop dog or whoever, but unfortunately my hopes of that are dwindling. Maybe a swop deal with Bellamy and Owen is one way in which we could solve the problem, but thats taking a huge gamble on Owen and his fitness problems. Not so much in my view about him being injury prone, but about what he has lost through his injuries.

I would love Tevez but I think he has been priced out of our reach.

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:13 pm

Why d'you ask Lynds? Know something? after that big build up I gave you earlier on I hope you do mate :;):

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:15 pm

Interesting points. Each of which could also provide a new thread.

Disclaimer: I'm perfectly honest when I say Gerrard is the best player in the team.

Gerrard is a very complete midfielder. He's so complete, I think he could be any position, but goalie.

Look, he has goal threat, he has range shot, he has everything. And due to this qualities, he's going to be near the box often. Yes, he also knows giving 40 yard passes when he gets a ball in the middle, but I think Rafa realises that gems like him near the box, there are few of them. Kaka and a few others.

So if you have a player constantly near the box, and he plays in the CM, quite simply, the other man should not go up much, unless he has to shoot from range, but only sometimes. Of course you can do that, but I'd never ask that to the Gerrard's companion -whoever he is. That said, I'm continental, for me 2 strikers is almost Gung Ho philosophy, and I'm more defensive than you lot are.

The other interesting case is the Mascherano - Alonso partnership. Mascherano can carry the ball better than Alonso. So does Gerrard. The opposition will have to choose. If they mark Alonso, heavily then Mascherano will be more free. If they put a man to follow Mascherano's more movility, then ALonso will have spaces and will make havoc. Where I've written Mascherano you can read Gerrard aswell.

Every effort on fixing players by the opposition are dearly paid. But I agree with Bigmick that if Mascherano is the companion of Alonso, then Alonso should be more box to box player. Because Mascherano won't be near the box as often as Gerrard will be, so Alonso will have to take more risks.

Gerrard in the right. Is he good? of course he is. Is he better there?, well he shines more because you're more free in that position, unlike the second striker position in which you don't have 1 second to breathe. So it's difficult to compare, IMHO. FOr me, Gerrard has done excellent matches as a second striker/attacking mid, he only lacked a couple of goals, but he had the chances. He didn't shine that much, for the same reason Kaka didn't shine, it's a difficult position to play.

by **stmichael** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:23 pm

bigmick wrote:The feeling persists though that to achieve this, Xabi is going to have to take the ball on the half turn more to avoid getting pinned in posession. He is also going to have to re-invent himself a touch so that he covers much more ground up and down the pitch than he has previously, and even go out of his comfort zone by going much more box to box. This is the case if he plays with gerrard, and even more so if he plays with Masherano.

Xabi's game is best when he's behind play, he can see the whole game and build the game for us, being dynamic isn't theoretically more attacking. Xabi is the brains of the team who knits the side very well together, the centre backs don't need to distribute the ball as much and more players can run instead of focusing on trying to make play as Xabi heads the distribution, so in an essence, he frees more players up. Tactically he plays deep, but thats good IMO, he gives balance and plays the "guardiola" role very well.

I don't think it's any coincidence Bigmick that he was seen as a much more attacking player in his first season as he had pace to aim for in Baros and Cisse.

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