Liverpool FC Forum

by **Dalglish** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:14 pm

Where does one begin to adequately explain the events of last Wednesday night in Athens ? Its all too easy to look at the game as a single entity but it's naive to believe that the problems encountered on Wednesday night are simply down to 90 minutes played in a stadium not fit for purpose.

Liverpool had beaten the Champions of England, Spain and Holland on their way to the final but couldn't find it in them to overcome an inept Italian side who finished 4th in their league this season !

If you look on it simply as one game then it simply came down to not being our night when with a little more guile and tactical know how the Italians were quite simply there for the taking. To come in at 0-1 at half time was quite possibly worse for the players than coming in at 0-3 two years previously when you consider how much we dominated the game. A fluke of a goal was the Italians only shot on target in the first 45mins. For the record Liverpool had 14 attempts on goal during the game to Milan's 4. And therein lies problem number 1. Since Michael Owen left LFC we have lacked a true goalscorer at the club. Cisse flattered to deceive, Baros over complicated things, Morientes failed to cross the Anglo/Spanish divide, Fowler not the player he was, Crouch given too few opportunities and Kuyt getting plenty of games and chances but found wanting where it really matters.

Problem number 2 became evident at Thursday's press conference when Rafa Benitez was almost caustic in explaining where he believes the problem lies and there aren't too many club owners who would have forgiven his comments. Listeners to that press conference may have inferred he was talking about Rik Parry but the more astute would have realised he was more than hinting at the upper hierarchy at Liverpool Football Club. His frustration at being beaten was overshadowed by his indignation at the speed at which business seems to be conducted at the club. However Hicks and Gillet are no mugs and realise that in order to build a new 70,000 Stadium they have to fill it with fans and if there is one ally that Benitez has at the club, it's the fans hence the peace-making comments coming from the boardroom.

This is the club that sat on its hands post Istanbul and nearly lost their talisman captain to Chelsea. The same club whose chief executive was apparently in a cinema with his mobile switched off when Michael Owen was waiting for a call from LFC and after hearing nothing signed for Newcastle.

Benitez has spent £44 Million in 3 seasons, finished above Arsenal twice and won as many trophies as Manchester United who have spent £43 million on just 2 players alone (Carrick and Rooney). Despite this financial mismatch he still has reached more European Cup finals in 3 seasons then Ferguson has in 20 seasons. However where finances make the difference is not in Europe where you have to play a maximum of 13 games to win it but in the League where you have to find a way of plugging that gap over 38 games. It's why only "spend easy" Spurs are likely to make any inroads in their efforts to break the monopoly of the BIG 4 in the Premiership and what makes those campaigning for Steve Coppel at Reading to be made Manager of the year worthy of attention. The FA Cup has been won only twice in the last 19 years by a team OTHER than Chelsea, United, Arsenal or Liverpool. The Premiership reads even grimmer statistics with 1 team in 15 seasons other than Man United, Chelsea or Arsenal winning it (Blackburn). And they say the Scottich premier league is predictable !

Its not simply a matter of spending money but equally how quickly you can get into a position to write the cheque which ultimately gets you players. Whilst most fans and players will take an hard earned break now, managers and the business people at the club have to broker deals for players and it often comes down to whose quickest to the table not just how much the table costs. This is the manager who left Valencia after guiding them to 2 Spanish League titles in 3 seasons competing against clubs with bigger pockets in Real Madrid and Barcelona. Ultimately his famous comment on leaving "I asked for a Sofa and they gave me a table lamp" probably doesn't translate too well into English but he knew than and he knows now that money (and speed of decisions) ultimately help you keep succeeding as a club.

Our footballing adversaries in London, Manchester and even some on Merseyside may gloat at our demise in Athens last week but we may look back on May 24th 2007 as the moment in the clubs history when the people who have brought the desire and ability to win, namely Rafa Benitez were listened to and equippied to do the job they were brought to the club to do. Then maybe we will sit at the top of the table when it comes to acquiring players rather than having to content ourselves with the crumbs left over after Chelsea and Man U have gorged themselves !

The Anorak

by **aCe'** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:39 pm

good post....

by **adamnbarrett** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:04 pm

what a fuckin post :bowdown

by **RUSHIE#9** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:29 pm

Nail well and truly hit on the head there Dalglish.

In terms of the result against Milan and other similar games/results I believe that the way Rafa's game plans work count on having somebody that is capable of taking the slightest chance that may come our way. The stats prove that we haven't got that at the minute and Rafa would appear to know that hence the urgency that he wants in concluding signings.

by **kunilson** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:45 pm

good post.

sums up alot of different points into one.
rafa seemed more angry than usual recently, and he's not the sort of manager who stays at a club for a long time (yet) which had me a bit worried. hopefully he has found his home.

by **Penguins** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:56 pm

Nice post.
Brings forward many good points.

by **adamnbarrett** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:31 am

In a way it's maybe for the best that we lost otherwise it would have covered up a poor domestic season from our point of view. Also if we had of won on wednesday maybe Rafa wouldn't have been backed as so strongly as he will be by the new owners.

It's not only the lack of funds to buy a new striker that has hindered us in the league in recent years it's the lack of impetus in the league away from home and when we are behind. i.e. I'd of liked us to really put pressure on Milan on wednesday with 25 mins to go when it was 1-0 in the same way Man utd have done in the league this season. Rafa doesn't tend to go at teams when we are behind incase we get embarressed e.g. Bolton when 2-0 down and Newcastle when 2-1 down were both occasions where we went behind and made no real attempt to put pressure on the other team.

Sometimes I think Rafa's just a bit too cautious for his own good sometimes and especially away from home we often see him aiming not to lose rather than win and that is why we haven't succeded in the league.

Winning the european cup in 2005 did stick the broken glass together but the cracks were still largely visible for all to see. The summer of 2005 was obviously going to be labelled a big sumer by press because everyone instantly thought 'well they've won the european cup so they'll win the league' but it was much more serious than that we didn't have the financial backing to ship out the dead wood and bring in the calibre of players needed to win the league.

You may say winning the league is about the money but look at why the mancs and chelsea have been so successful in the league, when they go behind whatever minute it is they attack and keep on attacking until they are infront. You see man uted against fulham this season, 1-0 down and they won 2-1 because they kepton attacking. You see Mourinho making subs with 30 mins gone and they go on to get something or win the game. That's what we need to do rather than wait until it's too late i.e. on wednesday.

For me, this is the biggest summer since 2002 as far as defining how Rafa will be judged . Rafa has often had to be forced to buy his plan B's bue to the lack of financial backing, we all know he wanted Darrent Bent and not Bellamy, he wanted Alves and not Pennant, he wanted Neil not Arbeloa. Houllier had the money to spend that year when teams like chelsea didn't and what did he buy? In the summer of 2002 Houllier bought the next Zidane, the next Viera, and Diouf.

Let's hope this summer isn't the same but I don't think for one second that it will be.

by **LFC2007** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:41 am

adamnbarrett wrote:In a way it's maybe for the best that we lost otherwise it would have covered up a poor domestic season from our point of view. Also if we had of won on wednesday maybe Rafa wouldn't have been backed as so strongly as he will be by the new owners.

Do you really think Rafa is as naive to think a win in the CL final would have acted as a smokescreen for the poor premiership campaign?

Or that the new owners would have re-considered the extent to which they backed him in the transfer market?

I disagree, strongly.

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:11 am

adamnbarrett wrote:In a way it's maybe for the best that we lost otherwise it would have covered up a poor domestic season from our point of view. Also if we had of won on wednesday maybe Rafa wouldn't have been backed as so strongly as he will be by the new owners.

It's not only the lack of funds to buy a new striker that has hindered us in the league in recent years it's the lack of impetus in the league away from home and when we are behind. i.e. I'd of liked us to really put pressure on Milan on wednesday with 25 mins to go when it was 1-0 in the same way Man utd have done in the league this season. Rafa doesn't tend to go at teams when we are behind incase we get embarressed e.g. Bolton when 2-0 down and Newcastle when 2-1 down were both occasions where we went behind and made no real attempt to put pressure on the other team.

Sometimes I think Rafa's just a bit too cautious for his own good sometimes and especially away from home we often see him aiming not to lose rather than win and that is why we haven't succeded in the league.

Winning the european cup in 2005 did stick the broken glass together but the cracks were still largely visible for all to see. The summer of 2005 was obviously going to be labelled a big sumer by press because everyone instantly thought 'well they've won the european cup so they'll win the league' but it was much more serious than that we didn't have the financial backing to ship out the dead wood and bring in the calibre of players needed to win the league.

You may say winning the league is about the money but look at why the mancs and chelsea have been so successful in the league, when they go behind whatever minute it is they attack and keep on attacking until they are infront. You see man uted against fulham this season, 1-0 down and they won 2-1 because they kepton attacking. You see Mourinho making subs with 30 mins gone and they go on to get something or win the game. That's what we need to do rather than wait until it's too late i.e. on wednesday.

For me, this is the biggest summer since 2002 as far as defining how Rafa will be judged . Rafa has often had to be forced to buy his plan B's bue to the lack of financial backing, we all know he wanted Darrent Bent and not Bellamy, he wanted Alves and not Pennant, he wanted Neil not Arbeloa. Houllier had the money to spend that year when teams like chelsea didn't and what did he buy? In the summer of 2002 Houllier bought the next Zidane, the next Viera, and Diouf.

Let's hope this summer isn't the same but I don't think for one second that it will be.

you say ability to turm matches around... i say quality...
difference between manutd, chelsea and liverpool is that they have quality players who can provide that extra thing at crucial timing to win games... we dont... all we have is gerrard...performing when he feels like it

dont get me wrong... im not saying wer a 1 man team... but we are a team with one world class player...

for the past 3 or 4 years... manutd and chelsea made great buys...world class players...every year they would fork out a fortune to sign class player who more often than not performed.

we have been buying decent players...with the odd class signing (reina..alonso) due to limited funds and poor scouting....simple as

defend rafa all you want but...given the money he spent... we could and should have done better ! net profit in players sold.. free signings and all that mean fck all to me...

this summer.... rafa has all the money to spend and all the players to go after... he either steps up, buys class players and we have no more excuses for fckin up next season... or he buys the kuyts, bellamys and youth of this world and we fight for 4th.... either way... rafa has to deliver next season !

by **redtrader74** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:29 am

aCe' wrote:
adamnbarrett wrote:In a way it's maybe for the best that we lost otherwise it would have covered up a poor domestic season from our point of view. Also if we had of won on wednesday maybe Rafa wouldn't have been backed as so strongly as he will be by the new owners.

It's not only the lack of funds to buy a new striker that has hindered us in the league in recent years it's the lack of impetus in the league away from home and when we are behind. i.e. I'd of liked us to really put pressure on Milan on wednesday with 25 mins to go when it was 1-0 in the same way Man utd have done in the league this season. Rafa doesn't tend to go at teams when we are behind incase we get embarressed e.g. Bolton when 2-0 down and Newcastle when 2-1 down were both occasions where we went behind and made no real attempt to put pressure on the other team.

Sometimes I think Rafa's just a bit too cautious for his own good sometimes and especially away from home we often see him aiming not to lose rather than win and that is why we haven't succeded in the league.

Winning the european cup in 2005 did stick the broken glass together but the cracks were still largely visible for all to see. The summer of 2005 was obviously going to be labelled a big sumer by press because everyone instantly thought 'well they've won the european cup so they'll win the league' but it was much more serious than that we didn't have the financial backing to ship out the dead wood and bring in the calibre of players needed to win the league.

You may say winning the league is about the money but look at why the mancs and chelsea have been so successful in the league, when they go behind whatever minute it is they attack and keep on attacking until they are infront. You see man uted against fulham this season, 1-0 down and they won 2-1 because they kepton attacking. You see Mourinho making subs with 30 mins gone and they go on to get something or win the game. That's what we need to do rather than wait until it's too late i.e. on wednesday.

For me, this is the biggest summer since 2002 as far as defining how Rafa will be judged . Rafa has often had to be forced to buy his plan B's bue to the lack of financial backing, we all know he wanted Darrent Bent and not Bellamy, he wanted Alves and not Pennant, he wanted Neil not Arbeloa. Houllier had the money to spend that year when teams like chelsea didn't and what did he buy? In the summer of 2002 Houllier bought the next Zidane, the next Viera, and Diouf.

Let's hope this summer isn't the same but I don't think for one second that it will be.

you say ability to turm matches around... i say quality...
difference between manutd, chelsea and liverpool is that they have quality players who can provide that extra thing at crucial timing to win games... we dont... all we have is gerrard...performing when he feels like it

dont get me wrong... im not saying wer a 1 man team... but we are a team with one world class player...

for the past 3 or 4 years... manutd and chelsea made great buys...world class players...every year they would fork out a fortune to sign class player who more often than not performed.

we have been buying decent players...with the odd class signing (reina..alonso) due to limited funds and poor scouting....simple as

defend rafa all you want but...given the money he spent... we could and should have done better ! net profit in players sold.. free signings and all that mean fck all to me...

this summer.... rafa has all the money to spend and all the players to go after... he either steps up, buys class players and we have no more excuses for fckin up next season... or he buys the kuyts, bellamys and youth of this world and we fight for 4th.... either way... rafa has to deliver next season !

Net transfer spend should mean something to you, it shows that in real terms all he had to spend over the last 3 years was £40m odd. How on Earth can you rebuild a side with that?

by **RedorDead** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:41 am

I don't usually post just to agree without adding other comments but Dalglish's post leaves very little else TO say....spot on mate...here's to Rafa finally getting some solid financial backing...and QUICKLY!!

by **Penguins** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:06 am

"you say ability to turm matches around... i say quality...
difference between manutd, chelsea and liverpool is that they have quality players who can provide that extra thing at crucial timing to win games... we dont... all we have is gerrard...performing when he feels like it"

ya, I agree

"dont get me wrong... im not saying wer a 1 man team... but we are a team with one world class player..."

I practically agree even though Reina, Alonso, Masch and to a degree Cara i find close, but all pretty defensive players.

"for the past 3 or 4 years... manutd and chelsea made great buys...world class players...every year they would fork out a fortune to sign class player who more often than not performed."

Yap, totally agree

"we have been buying decent players...with the odd class signing (reina..alonso) due to limited funds and poor scouting....simple as"

Hmm, true

"defend rafa all you want but...given the money he spent... we could and should have done better ! net profit in players sold.. free signings and all that mean fck all to me..."

This is were things start to confuse me.
U just mentioned due to limited funds we've been buying decent squad players and not afford world class which u have stated that we needed. Then u start now by saying given the money he has had he should be doing better?
What? Doing better with a whole 40 million transfer budget over 3 years? Even Spurs and barcodes have had bigger budgets than that.
And even in the footballing world you work with a budget.

Not selling and only buying for 50 million means exactly the same as selling for 50 million and buying for 100 million.
The transfer budget is still THE SAME!

"this summer.... rafa has all the money to spend and all the players to go after... he either steps up, buys class players and we have no more excuses for fckin up next season... or he buys the kuyts, bellamys and youth of this world and we fight for 4th.... either way... rafa has to deliver next season !"

ya, true, this summer it seems like there will be money to spend and sure he will be able to hopefully buy class players.
But this is the 1st time ever he has been able to do that.
Even if 2 3 or 4 top class players come in do you really expect the team to gel in no time at all and that the new signings will start in top gear from day 1.
We can all hope but I just don't see that as very likely.
And saying next season Rafa has to deliver or else is just too rash. I expect improvment and no more bellamy buys but with us just stomping at the same place for 3 years and not really improving the quality in the squad it will take time getting top class in many positions all of a sudden in no time.

Manure has had 10 years adding 1 or 2 world class players every year. We have never ever been able to do that and maybe now for the 1st time we might.
You don't get from 0 to 100 in one season. I don't believe that
unless you are Chelski and spend 100 million in the off season.

it's looking promising but plz try and be realistic.

by **bigmick** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:32 am

Fecking hell Ian good post mate, summed it all up really well. As an aside, not only does he write great football posts but Ian is an absolutely top bloke as well. He showed me round Anfield once and and couldn't have been any more helpful if he tried. An absolute top man.

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:27 pm

Penguins wrote:"you say ability to turm matches around... i say quality...
difference between manutd, chelsea and liverpool is that they have quality players who can provide that extra thing at crucial timing to win games... we dont... all we have is gerrard...performing when he feels like it"

ya, I agree

"dont get me wrong... im not saying wer a 1 man team... but we are a team with one world class player..."

I practically agree even though Reina, Alonso, Masch and to a degree Cara i find close, but all pretty defensive players.

"for the past 3 or 4 years... manutd and chelsea made great buys...world class players...every year they would fork out a fortune to sign class player who more often than not performed."

Yap, totally agree

"we have been buying decent players...with the odd class signing (reina..alonso) due to limited funds and poor scouting....simple as"

Hmm, true

"defend rafa all you want but...given the money he spent... we could and should have done better ! net profit in players sold.. free signings and all that mean fck all to me..."

This is were things start to confuse me.
U just mentioned due to limited funds we've been buying decent squad players and not afford world class which u have stated that we needed. Then u start now by saying given the money he has had he should be doing better?
What? Doing better with a whole 40 million transfer budget over 3 years? Even Spurs and barcodes have had bigger budgets than that.
And even in the footballing world you work with a budget.

Not selling and only buying for 50 million means exactly the same as selling for 50 million and buying for 100 million.
The transfer budget is still THE SAME!

"this summer.... rafa has all the money to spend and all the players to go after... he either steps up, buys class players and we have no more excuses for fckin up next season... or he buys the kuyts, bellamys and youth of this world and we fight for 4th.... either way... rafa has to deliver next season !"

ya, true, this summer it seems like there will be money to spend and sure he will be able to hopefully buy class players.
But this is the 1st time ever he has been able to do that.
Even if 2 3 or 4 top class players come in do you really expect the team to gel in no time at all and that the new signings will start in top gear from day 1.
We can all hope but I just don't see that as very likely.
And saying next season Rafa has to deliver or else is just too rash. I expect improvment and no more bellamy buys but with us just stomping at the same place for 3 years and not really improving the quality in the squad it will take time getting top class in many positions all of a sudden in no time.

Manure has had 10 years adding 1 or 2 world class players every year. We have never ever been able to do that and maybe now for the 1st time we might.
You don't get from 0 to 100 in one season. I don't believe that
unless you are Chelski and spend 100 million in the off season.

it's looking promising but plz try and be realistic.

when i said done better... i didnt mean go out and buy world class players for cheap...
i meant better players for the same price... (Anelka better than Kuyt) or even better (1 class player to play alongside Crouch and maybe FSP if he hadnt loaned him out..plz try to tell me 16 mill or so wouldnt have got a to class striker ?! )
and yes i do think that we have to deliver next season... im not saying go out and win the league ( not that its out of the question either...) but be there challenging for it and improving as a team... wouldnt be content with paying big money and playing for a championsleague spot with a team that could potentially beat any of the top sides...
and mate.... we are not moving from 0 to 100... we are not that far behind the leading 2 and with a few quality signings...say Alves , Silva and Torres we would look pretty damn good compared to any of the top sides....
simply compare us to the league champions and a combined select 11 of the 2 clubs would look something like this:

Reina(pool)

Alves(pool) Ferdinand(ManC) Carra(pool) Evra(ManC)

Ronaldo(ManC) Gerrard(pool) Scholes(ManC) Silva(pool)

Torres(pool) Rooney(ManC)

6 of our player and 5 of theirs... 1 here one there... our squads arnt that different afterall...

just the difference in class is what seperates us from them atm... if we can inject some quality into our already solid squad... i think wed be a force to be reckoned with...

realistic you say... i am... we are not that far behind... we lack flair and creativity... a few signings and we CAN mount a challenge...if you cant see it... then we just have very different opinions i guess

by **RedorDead** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:47 pm

aCe' wrote:
Penguins wrote:"you say ability to turm matches around... i say quality...
difference between manutd, chelsea and liverpool is that they have quality players who can provide that extra thing at crucial timing to win games... we dont... all we have is gerrard...performing when he feels like it"

ya, I agree

"dont get me wrong... im not saying wer a 1 man team... but we are a team with one world class player..."

I practically agree even though Reina, Alonso, Masch and to a degree Cara i find close, but all pretty defensive players.

"for the past 3 or 4 years... manutd and chelsea made great buys...world class players...every year they would fork out a fortune to sign class player who more often than not performed."

Yap, totally agree

"we have been buying decent players...with the odd class signing (reina..alonso) due to limited funds and poor scouting....simple as"

Hmm, true

"defend rafa all you want but...given the money he spent... we could and should have done better ! net profit in players sold.. free signings and all that mean fck all to me..."

This is were things start to confuse me.
U just mentioned due to limited funds we've been buying decent squad players and not afford world class which u have stated that we needed. Then u start now by saying given the money he has had he should be doing better?
What? Doing better with a whole 40 million transfer budget over 3 years? Even Spurs and barcodes have had bigger budgets than that.
And even in the footballing world you work with a budget.

Not selling and only buying for 50 million means exactly the same as selling for 50 million and buying for 100 million.
The transfer budget is still THE SAME!

"this summer.... rafa has all the money to spend and all the players to go after... he either steps up, buys class players and we have no more excuses for fckin up next season... or he buys the kuyts, bellamys and youth of this world and we fight for 4th.... either way... rafa has to deliver next season !"

ya, true, this summer it seems like there will be money to spend and sure he will be able to hopefully buy class players.
But this is the 1st time ever he has been able to do that.
Even if 2 3 or 4 top class players come in do you really expect the team to gel in no time at all and that the new signings will start in top gear from day 1.
We can all hope but I just don't see that as very likely.
And saying next season Rafa has to deliver or else is just too rash. I expect improvment and no more bellamy buys but with us just stomping at the same place for 3 years and not really improving the quality in the squad it will take time getting top class in many positions all of a sudden in no time.

Manure has had 10 years adding 1 or 2 world class players every year. We have never ever been able to do that and maybe now for the 1st time we might.
You don't get from 0 to 100 in one season. I don't believe that
unless you are Chelski and spend 100 million in the off season.

it's looking promising but plz try and be realistic.

when i said done better... i didnt mean go out and buy world class players for cheap...
i meant better players for the same price... (Anelka better than Kuyt) or even better (1 class player to play alongside Crouch and maybe FSP if he hadnt loaned him out..plz try to tell me 16 mill or so wouldnt have got a to class striker ?! )
and yes i do think that we have to deliver next season... im not saying go out and win the league ( not that its out of the question either...) but be there challenging for it and improving as a team... wouldnt be content with paying big money and playing for a championsleague spot with a team that could potentially beat any of the top sides...
and mate.... we are not moving from 0 to 100... we are not that far behind the leading 2 and with a few quality signings...say Alves , Silva and Torres we would look pretty damn good compared to any of the top sides....
simply compare us to the league champions and a combined select 11 of the 2 clubs would look something like this:

Reina(pool)

Alves(pool) Ferdinand(ManC) Carra(pool) Evra(ManC)

Ronaldo(ManC) Gerrard(pool) Scholes(ManC) Silva(pool)

Torres(pool) Rooney(ManC)

6 of our player and 5 of theirs... 1 here one there... our squads arnt that different afterall...

just the difference in class is what seperates us from them atm... if we can inject some quality into our already solid squad... i think wed be a force to be reckoned with...

realistic you say... i am... we are not that far behind... we lack flair and creativity... a few signings and we CAN mount a challenge...if you cant see it... then we just have very different opinions i guess

Except only three of the starting eleven you posted actually play for Liverpool. I agree with your point in that we don't have an ENORMOUS gap to bridge but we are certainly a few players short of a genuine title challenge. We also need to change our mentality, beat the lesser teams of this league inbetween the big European nights but that's another thread I suppose.

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