Liverpool FC Forum

by **The Specialist** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:05 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
The Specialist wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Alonso never had a bad bad game? i take it you were watching a different game this week?

Well, I guess I was watching a different game too as I thought Alonso was solid. Would all those who feel Alonso had a shocker care to provide some evidence to support this conclusion? Just what did he do that was so poor?

He was shi.te, get over it.

Look at the rash tackles, all the stray passes. He was incredibly lucky he didn't get sent off.

Sh.ite? Nah, I'm not having that. Have a look at the performances that Arbeloa, Riise, Bellamy and Zenden put in and Alonso was sh.ite? Do me a favour.

The only rash challenge I saw was an errant boot into Mikel's thigh on a 50/50 ball. He apologized straight away, Mikel and Chelsea accepted it (you think Jose wouldn't have made a meal of it if it really was so bad...especially considering the Essien challenge on Hamann last season?) and Merk didn't even give him a talking to. How was he lucky not to be sent off? On the other side of the equation, he made so very important tackles in midfield--as always--not to mention a few body-sacrificing slide-ins for the ball when teammates sold him short. His commitment was total and his contribution was significant.

On the subject of stray passes, I can remember one overcooked pass to Arbeloa but that was more than made up for by the numerous times he reversed play from right to left, finding Zenden in space with a pinpoint pass. But look, there's always going to be one or two of those "stray" balls from Xabi because, unlike many players attempting cross-field passes, Alonso actually tries to really lead the player by playing the ball into space and inviting them to run onto it, rather than simply trying to pick them out where they stand (or five yards in front of them). Sometimes, the player gets a late start and doesn't have the legs to get to it but, on the occasions where they come off, those passes usually leave the player in plenty of space deep within the opposition zone.

Now, don't get me wrong, Alonso has certainly had better games in a red shirt but he was far from sh.ite on the night and he was nowhere near our worst performer on the pitch (and was actually much closer to being our top performer). So, you'll forgive me if I get a little frustrated with people sticking the boot in for no good reason.

Bad Bob, using other players to try and defend Alonso's performance is ridiculous. I didn't single Alonso out either. Basically the whole team played pretty poorly.

You obviously have the red-tinted glasses on. Can you honestly say that if a Chelsea player kicked Xabi in the groin, you wouldn't be calling for him to be sent off?

There was more than one or two stray passes also. I can't be bothered remembering every single time a pass didn't go his way or he lost the ball, but it was definitely more than once or twice.

You can end your posts with that dumb emoticon all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Alonso put in a poor performance. It is what is is.

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:05 pm

Sabre's question about Andy Gray's input on SKY is a fair one. Many peoples views are seemingly much at odds with my opinions (particularly on the performances of Alsoso and Aggers handling of Drogba, INCLUDING the goal). I wonder if our Scottish Bluenose advocate was putting the boot in with his "expert" analysis. If he was, the only surprise to me is that he didn't put the goal down to zonal marking, a concept which he has demonstrated many times he doesn't actually understand the rudiments of.
For my part I had to endure an American co-commentator who opened up proceedings by telling us that both teams would be "going hell for leather to reach the Championship Finals", and described Lampards effort which was well saved by the excelent Reina near the end as a "great side volley". There were many more Budweiser ad' moments but even then I must confess I didn't long for Andy's input. If I was guessing I would have thought he mentioned Gerrard on the right a couple of times as well? Thought so.

One last point. Why isn't there a Reina thread in the aftermath of the game because if it wasn't for out often criticised Spanish goalkeeper our season would now be over.

by **Stu.Murph** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:24 pm

bigmick wrote:Sabre's question about Andy Gray's input on SKY is a fair one. Many peoples views are seemingly much at odds with my opinions (particularly on the performances of Alsoso and Aggers handling of Drogba, INCLUDING the goal). I wonder if our Scottish Bluenose advocate was putting the boot in with his "expert" analysis. If he was, the only surprise to me is that he didn't put the goal down to zonal marking, a concept which he has demonstrated many times he doesn't actually understand the rudiments of.
For my part I had to endure an American co-commentator who opened up proceedings by telling us that both teams would be "going hell for leather to reach the Championship Finals", and described Lampards effort which was well saved by the excelent Reina near the end as a "great side volley". There were many more Budweiser ad' moments but even then I must confess I didn't long for Andy's input. If I was guessing I would have thought he mentioned Gerrard on the right a couple of times as well? Thought so.

One last point. Why isn't there a Reina thread in the aftermath of the game because if it wasn't for out often criticised Spanish goalkeeper our season would now be over.

Not impressed with you at all. You know why. Not even a bull :censored:

explanation and complete biased :censored:

... But thats not for here...

Anyway to the point...

Andy Gray is not half as bad as people make out. Infact I'd go as far as to say he's absoloutely excellent and knows the game very well.

Its completely true he doesn't understand the concept of zonal marking and its completely true he does harp on about Gerrard also(which he does have a point with to an extent).

But all in he's very good. He has some flaws as a commentator and analyst but I'd rather listen to him than just about any of the others. He's very realistic and I think alot of what he says against Liverpool is due to his expections of us being alot better than we currently are. Also alot of people don't like to hear it, but the fact is we are pretty much what people say, and thats a one man team.

Ok, Carragher and Alonso help, but at times this season Alonso's looked off the pace and flat.

As an analyst he's very good along with Alan Hansen and also for my money even though he bores the life out of me, Alan Shearer.

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:32 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:Not impressed with you at all. You know why. Not even a bull explanation and complete biased ... But thats not for here...

Presumeably the "not impressed" bit refers to the warnings I've dished out. I'd be a bit surprised if you were impressed Stu to be honest. You can also be absolutely certain that I don't give warnings to one of the best football posters on the forum for behaviour which I consider impressive. I am distinctly unimpressed also, you can be quadruple sure of that.
On the question of Andy Gray I'm afraid I am going to have to differ. The man is a cast iron, neon sign, flashing light t0sser. All IMHO of course.

by **Stu.Murph** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:46 pm

Whatever

On the football front, Drogba simply had to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for Agger. Which says it all about the lads level of ability.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:03 pm

The Specialist wrote:Bad Bob, using other players to try and defend Alonso's performance is ridiculous. I didn't single Alonso out either. Basically the whole team played pretty poorly.

You said he was sh!te, lad--not poor, sh!te. That's well over the top. Had you said poor we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And my comparison to other players has to do with the fact that I don't think any of the ones I named were so bad as to be considered sh!te on the night (has a ring, don't it Saint!

) despite being palpably poorer than Alonso. You may call this an over-reaction but I reserve the label "sh!te" for truly awful, haul-him-off-immediately performances.

You obviously have the red-tinted glasses on. Can you honestly say that if a Chelsea player kicked Xabi in the groin, you wouldn't be calling for him to be sent off?

This on the other hand is fair comment. I would have been screaming at Merk had the roles been reversed but it was one challenge, mate. It's not like Alonso went around hacking players down for 90 minutes. I just don't see why this is evidence of a sh!te (or even poor) game.

There was more than one or two stray passes also. I can't be bothered remembering every single time a pass didn't go his way or he lost the ball, but it was definitely more than once or twice.

Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

You can end your posts with that dumb emoticon all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Alonso put in a poor performance. It is what is is.

Well, since you've generously upgraded Xabi's performance from sh!te to poor, I'll upgrade you from a :kungfu:

to a

Better?

by **Scottbot** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:25 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

That's BS Stu, Carra's limitations as a full-back were exactly the same as those you have been quite rightly pointing out in finnan's game earlier in this thread. Carra was a good full-back and now he's an EXCELLENT centre-half. you can't sit there and say he faired equally as well in each position? His play this past 3 years has been superior to that of the previous 5/6. Do you disagree?

by **Stu.Murph** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

That's BS Stu, Carra's limitations as a full-back were exactly the same as those you have been quite rightly pointing out in finnan's game earlier in this thread. Carra was a good full-back and now he's an EXCELLENT centre-half. you can't sit there and say he faired equally as well in each position? His play this past 3 years has been superior to that of the previous 5/6. Do you disagree?

Get on MSN ya tit and we'll have that discussion on there.

by **Stu.Murph** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
The Specialist wrote:Bad Bob, using other players to try and defend Alonso's performance is ridiculous. I didn't single Alonso out either. Basically the whole team played pretty poorly.

You said he was sh!te, lad--not poor, sh!te. That's well over the top. Had you said poor we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And my comparison to other players has to do with the fact that I don't think any of the ones I named were so bad as to be considered sh!te on the night (has a ring, don't it Saint! ) despite being palpably poorer than Alonso. You may call this an over-reaction but I reserve the label "sh!te" for truly awful, haul-him-off-immediately performances.

You obviously have the red-tinted glasses on. Can you honestly say that if a Chelsea player kicked Xabi in the groin, you wouldn't be calling for him to be sent off?

This on the other hand is fair comment. I would have been screaming at Merk had the roles been reversed but it was one challenge, mate. It's not like Alonso went around hacking players down for 90 minutes. I just don't see why this is evidence of a sh!te (or even poor) game.

There was more than one or two stray passes also. I can't be bothered remembering every single time a pass didn't go his way or he lost the ball, but it was definitely more than once or twice.

Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

You can end your posts with that dumb emoticon all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Alonso put in a poor performance. It is what is is.

Well, since you've generously upgraded Xabi's performance from sh!te to poor, I'll upgrade you from a to a

Better?

Bob Bad!

by **The Specialist** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:02 am

Bad Bob wrote:
The Specialist wrote:Bad Bob, using other players to try and defend Alonso's performance is ridiculous. I didn't single Alonso out either. Basically the whole team played pretty poorly.

You said he was sh!te, lad--not poor, sh!te. That's well over the top. Had you said poor we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And my comparison to other players has to do with the fact that I don't think any of the ones I named were so bad as to be considered sh!te on the night (has a ring, don't it Saint! ) despite being palpably poorer than Alonso. You may call this an over-reaction but I reserve the label "sh!te" for truly awful, haul-him-off-immediately performances.

You obviously have the red-tinted glasses on. Can you honestly say that if a Chelsea player kicked Xabi in the groin, you wouldn't be calling for him to be sent off?

This on the other hand is fair comment. I would have been screaming at Merk had the roles been reversed but it was one challenge, mate. It's not like Alonso went around hacking players down for 90 minutes. I just don't see why this is evidence of a sh!te (or even poor) game.

There was more than one or two stray passes also. I can't be bothered remembering every single time a pass didn't go his way or he lost the ball, but it was definitely more than once or twice.

Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

You can end your posts with that dumb emoticon all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Alonso put in a poor performance. It is what is is.

Well, since you've generously upgraded Xabi's performance from sh!te to poor, I'll upgrade you from a to a

Better?

Sh.it, poor, way below par, not up to snuff? Is there really much of a difference there? Your argument is a silly one, mate. It's a definite overreaction.

Again, you keep on comparing other players. What for? I don't understand. Is Xabi to be excused? Did anyone excuse Agger for his part in Chelsea's goal? Arbeloa was key there, as he let Joe Cole stroll past him. Was Agger's defending against Drogba not so bad then when you look at the big picture? No, it doesn't matter.

You keep on going on about how he was "solid" and this and that, but why was he subbed then? Why wasn't Mascherano taken off instead? If I watched the game again, I would be in a better position to explain to you in detail what he did wrong. I didn't write things down or make mental notes of every play when I viewed the game. I can't get into real specifics.

Also to be perfectly honest , I have been trying to forget the game completely since viewing it (as it was painful to watch). And I just don't care enough to try and re-live it just to get into an argument with you, so whatever...

If you want to dismiss my opinion, then fine. I don't really care what emoticon you assign to me. You're a middle-aged man assigning emoticons to random people on an internet messageboard. Who's the real " :kungfu:

" ?

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:54 am

The Specialist wrote:Sh.it, poor, way below par, not up to snuff? Is there really much of a difference there? Your argument is a silly one, mate. It's a definite overreaction.

Again, you keep on comparing other players. What for? I don't understand. Is Xabi to be excused? Did anyone excuse Agger for his part in Chelsea's goal? Arbeloa was key there, as he let Joe Cole stroll past him. Was Agger's defending against Drogba not so bad then when you look at the big picture? No, it doesn't matter.

You keep on going on about how he was "solid" and this and that, but why was he subbed then? Why wasn't Mascherano taken off instead? If I watched the game again, I would be in a better position to explain to you in detail what he did wrong. I didn't write things down or make mental notes of every play when I viewed the game. I can't get into real specifics.

Also to be perfectly honest , I have been trying to forget the game completely since viewing it (as it was painful to watch). And I just don't care enough to try and re-live it just to get into an argument with you, so whatever...

If you want to dismiss my opinion, then fine. I don't really care what emoticon you assign to me. You're a middle-aged man assigning emoticons to random people on an internet messageboard. Who's the real " " ?

Just a couple of points in reply and then I swear I'll let it drop...

1) The sub, for me, was a tactical switch--a defensive midfielder came off and an attacking midfielder came on because we were chasing an away goal. I don't think it had anything to do with Alonso having a poor game, I think Rafa just felt that Mascherano would "stay at home" more when Gerrard went forward, is all. People, IMO, are reading too much into this substitution.

2) I really, truly believe that central midfielders are the hardest players to evaluate fairly in terms of performance. How often has Gerrard been described as "quiet" or "below his best" this season just because he didn't score a 30 yard screamer or win a penalty? When CMs do the flash stuff--like Alonso did against Newcastle at Anfield this season--they are rightly praised but when they don't, they are often quite unfairly criticized. They can spend 90 minutes in the trenches, tackling, intercepting passes, tracking runs, shepherding ball carriers towards teammates, making themselves available for the safe pass, moving the ball around, taking kicks, winning headers--all the unsung stuff--and loads of people will still p!ss all over them if they didn't score a goal or set one up. I've seen it many, many times on this board and others, so it's bigger than just Alonso against Chelsea but this time out it's been especially prevalent. "Yer, Alonso's had another poor game" says someone and a chorus of "ayes" soon follows. Personally, I'm sick of it because it's a lazy comment. Why was Alonso (or Gerrard, or Mascherano, or Sissoko) poor? If people are so sure he had a shocker than surely they won't mind taking a minute to explain their reasoning, with evidence from the match. If they won't or can't do that, I just have to assume it's because they don't really understand the full scope of a CM's game and therefore can't appreciate all the little things that get done off the ball to ensure that the shape is maintained or the cleansheet is preserved or the scoring move gets started. For the sake of quality football discussion let's pack the lazy punditry in and really get into these issues. BTW, I'm not have a go at you per se--your comments were just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

3) As for the emoticons, mate, I was just having a bit of fun! :pirate

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:54 am

Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

Alonso tinted glasses !

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:05 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

Alonso tinted glasses !

You mean these? :cool:

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:12 am

Bad Bob wrote:2) I really, truly believe that central midfielders are the hardest players to evaluate fairly in terms of performance. How often has Gerrard been described as "quiet" or "below his best" this season just because he didn't score a 30 yard screamer or win a penalty? When CMs do the flash stuff--like Alonso did against Newcastle at Anfield this season--they are rightly praised but when they don't, they are often quite unfairly criticized. They can spend 90 minutes in the trenches, tackling, intercepting passes, tracking runs, shepherding ball carriers towards teammates, making themselves available for the safe pass, moving the ball around, taking kicks, winning headers--all the unsung stuff--and loads of people will still p!ss all over them if they didn't score a goal or set one up. I've seen it many, many times on this board and others, so it's bigger than just Alonso against Chelsea but this time out it's been especially prevalent. "Yer, Alonso's had another poor game" says someone and a chorus of "ayes" soon follows. Personally, I'm sick of it because it's a lazy comment. Why was Alonso (or Gerrard, or Mascherano, or Sissoko) poor? If people are so sure he had a shocker than surely they won't mind taking a minute to explain their reasoning, with evidence from the match. If they won't or can't do that, I just have to assume it's because they don't really understand the full scope of a CM's game and therefore can't appreciate all the little things that get done off the ball to ensure that the shape is maintained or the cleansheet is preserved or the scoring move gets started.

Make a sentence out of the following words:

Nail, The, On, Hit, Head, The.

:nod

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:17 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:2) I really, truly believe that central midfielders are the hardest players to evaluate fairly in terms of performance. How often has Gerrard been described as "quiet" or "below his best" this season just because he didn't score a 30 yard screamer or win a penalty? When CMs do the flash stuff--like Alonso did against Newcastle at Anfield this season--they are rightly praised but when they don't, they are often quite unfairly criticized. They can spend 90 minutes in the trenches, tackling, intercepting passes, tracking runs, shepherding ball carriers towards teammates, making themselves available for the safe pass, moving the ball around, taking kicks, winning headers--all the unsung stuff--and loads of people will still p!ss all over them if they didn't score a goal or set one up. I've seen it many, many times on this board and others, so it's bigger than just Alonso against Chelsea but this time out it's been especially prevalent. "Yer, Alonso's had another poor game" says someone and a chorus of "ayes" soon follows. Personally, I'm sick of it because it's a lazy comment. Why was Alonso (or Gerrard, or Mascherano, or Sissoko) poor? If people are so sure he had a shocker than surely they won't mind taking a minute to explain their reasoning, with evidence from the match. If they won't or can't do that, I just have to assume it's because they don't really understand the full scope of a CM's game and therefore can't appreciate all the little things that get done off the ball to ensure that the shape is maintained or the cleansheet is preserved or the scoring move gets started.

Make a sentence out of the following words:

Nail, The, On, Hit, Head, The.

Thank f.uck someone else is wearing their Alonso-tinted glasses tonight! :cool:

BTW, Woodgate's class but too injury prone to drop a wedge of cash on given our needs in other areas.

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