Liverpool FC Forum

Ade wrote:Stu, Carra had a few dodgy games earlier in his career - he even scored two own goals in one game against the Mancs, which might be a record. And the fact that he was shunted around as a utility defender and makeshift defensive midfielder tells you that he needed time to mature. And over the past 3 seasons, given that time and patience, he has been magnificent.

Agger will come good. Drogba has made a mess of a lot of defenders over the past two years, and Dan didn't get the best back-up from his fullbacks on Weds. Him and Carra are fine, it's LB, the wingers and two new strikers we need. You go hunting for a world-class CB with our new American bankrollers and you'll be stumping up nearly £10m for a player we don't need.

Finnan is also top-quality and was badly missed against Chelsea.

He never had dodgy games at all. Thats was peoples completely wrong perception of the lad because he was playing in defence on his own when Liverpool went through the stage of playing a 1-4-2 formation.

Carragher was immense them first few years and i dread to think how bad our defence would have been without him there. Its not even worth thinking about. Myself and a mate of mine used to say untill he moved back to centre half regularly, how the only players who ever got the better of him were Pires and Henry and he marked players like Giggs, Beckham, Robert, Kewell etc etc out of games consistently.

That game against the Mancs aswell, neither of those own goals were his fault and if one player around him had bothered there to even attempt to do their job none of those incidents would have happened.

I'd rather the arguement saying the fact he was shunted around shown he was already mature as to the fact he held his own ahead of specialist players like Zeige, Babbel etc etc. He shown his maturity from day one.

As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

Simple as that.

Stu.Murph wrote:

stmichael wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:We've already got Riise and Finnan who aren't top players at the back

behave

I've been over this time and time again. Finnan isn't great going forward. He's very good and clever defensively but going forward he offers little in the way of an overlap. He's another limited player.

His concentration and composure are absoloutely superb as is his reading of the game and unauthordox positioning but he's not and never will be a top class player. The amount of times he simply fails to overlap and create space for the wide players and the amount of times he doesn't get forward when its on is a massive hinderance to our attack and one reason we often look one dimensional.

Alot of people only see players for what they are, when in all reality, you have to look at what they aren't to figure out where to improve.

He's a good player who provides solidity and consistency and is one you can get away with providing the balance of the team around him is right, which it generally is.

How anyone can sit there and say he's a great player though is beyond me.

To be quite honest, listening to everyone here...

Jamie Carragher's world class.
Steven Gerrard's world class.
Xabi Alonso and Mascherano are top class.
Aggers going to be world class as is Sissoko.
Kuyts a great player.
Finnan's the best right back in the league and Gonzalez might become the new Ronaldo because he's lightening quick...

We're just 3rd because we have been unlucky this season then?

Basically we have at least two world class players, two world class prospects and two players who'd get into any team in the league and potentially one of the best wingers in the world in Gonzalez.



The fact is, if it wasn't for Gerrard, Alonso and Carragher, Liverpool FC probably wouldn't be as strong as Everton on paper.

It's always easy to point out the negative aspects of a player and tell everyone "I told you so!"

Sometimes the glass is half full you know.

Is Stu this Dunc guy from Koptalk who just wants to wind people up ?

Gets a bit tiring always reading negative know it all BS

All of our players have negative aspects to their game.. true .. but there is no team in the world that has perfect players in every position. (Unless you think it is football manager) For all these non-class players we seem to have we have done alright this season. We are looking at 3rd place in the league and another CL final. Although not reaching the goal of being the best English team where we belong we are definitely heading in the right direction.

How bout trying to be a supporter for once and not a critic !


Cue Stu:
"What do you know?"
"Another optimist"
" "
"blah blah blah"

Reply:

"Cheer up mate, give us a smile"

GLB1 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

stmichael wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:We've already got Riise and Finnan who aren't top players at the back

behave

I've been over this time and time again. Finnan isn't great going forward. He's very good and clever defensively but going forward he offers little in the way of an overlap. He's another limited player.

His concentration and composure are absoloutely superb as is his reading of the game and unauthordox positioning but he's not and never will be a top class player. The amount of times he simply fails to overlap and create space for the wide players and the amount of times he doesn't get forward when its on is a massive hinderance to our attack and one reason we often look one dimensional.

Alot of people only see players for what they are, when in all reality, you have to look at what they aren't to figure out where to improve.

He's a good player who provides solidity and consistency and is one you can get away with providing the balance of the team around him is right, which it generally is.

How anyone can sit there and say he's a great player though is beyond me.

To be quite honest, listening to everyone here...

Jamie Carragher's world class.
Steven Gerrard's world class.
Xabi Alonso and Mascherano are top class.
Aggers going to be world class as is Sissoko.
Kuyts a great player.
Finnan's the best right back in the league and Gonzalez might become the new Ronaldo because he's lightening quick...

We're just 3rd because we have been unlucky this season then?

Basically we have at least two world class players, two world class prospects and two players who'd get into any team in the league and potentially one of the best wingers in the world in Gonzalez.



The fact is, if it wasn't for Gerrard, Alonso and Carragher, Liverpool FC probably wouldn't be as strong as Everton on paper.

It's always easy to point out the negative aspects of a player and tell everyone "I told you so!"

Sometimes the glass is half full you know.

Is Stu this Dunc guy from Koptalk who just wants to wind people up ?

Gets a bit tiring always reading negative know it all BS

All of our players have negative aspects to their game.. true .. but there is no team in the world that has perfect players in every position. (Unless you think it is football manager) For all these non-class players we seem to have we have done alright this season. We are looking at 3rd place in the league and another CL final. Although not reaching the goal of being the best English team where we belong we are definitely heading in the right direction.

How bout trying to be a supporter for once and not a critic !


Cue Stu:
"What do you know?"
"Another optimist"
" "
"blah blah blah"

Reply:

"Cheer up mate, give us a smile"

dawson99 wrote:So if woodgate is 7 million but injury prone, who else of his calibre could we get for the same kind of money?

s@int wrote:

dawson99 wrote:So if woodgate is 7 million but injury prone, who else of his calibre could we get for the same kind of money?

Probably no-one with his proven ability, experience, quality etc. He was discount price for a reason, he's a gamble because of fitness problems not on his ability.

I still think people are panicking over Agger too much. He struggled against Drogba but he didnt stop trying didn't take the easy way out and get sent off. He got a footballing lesson against Chelsea, but for me he reacted well on the night. We need to see now if he has learned his lesson, and how well he reacts. FFS Drogba ripped Sammi apart when they won 4-1 and has been a handfull for most CB'S all season.

The two areas of Aggers game that need improvement are his heading and his strength. His heading can be improved but he's never going to be another Sammi , his strength will come as he matures. His distribution while not "Hansonesque" as some were saying is still better than most CB'S.

Lets see how he plays the next few games ,as it will tell us almost everything we need to know about his charactor, and my money is on him passing the test.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Ade wrote:Stu, Carra had a few dodgy games earlier in his career - he even scored two own goals in one game against the Mancs, which might be a record. And the fact that he was shunted around as a utility defender and makeshift defensive midfielder tells you that he needed time to mature. And over the past 3 seasons, given that time and patience, he has been magnificent.

Agger will come good. Drogba has made a mess of a lot of defenders over the past two years, and Dan didn't get the best back-up from his fullbacks on Weds. Him and Carra are fine, it's LB, the wingers and two new strikers we need. You go hunting for a world-class CB with our new American bankrollers and you'll be stumping up nearly £10m for a player we don't need.

Finnan is also top-quality and was badly missed against Chelsea.

He never had dodgy games at all. Thats was peoples completely wrong perception of the lad because he was playing in defence on his own when Liverpool went through the stage of playing a 1-4-2 formation.

Carragher was immense them first few years and i dread to think how bad our defence would have been without him there. Its not even worth thinking about. Myself and a mate of mine used to say untill he moved back to centre half regularly, how the only players who ever got the better of him were Pires and Henry and he marked players like Giggs, Beckham, Robert, Kewell etc etc out of games consistently.

That game against the Mancs aswell, neither of those own goals were his fault and if one player around him had bothered there to even attempt to do their job none of those incidents would have happened.

I'd rather the arguement saying the fact he was shunted around shown he was already mature as to the fact he held his own ahead of specialist players like Zeige, Babbel etc etc. He shown his maturity from day one.

As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

Simple as that.

, he was shaky at times and the idea that it was the fault of everyone around him, all the time, never Carra's fault… do me a favour.

You're gambling on being the first to 'out' a player who's not gonna make it, ie Agger, and yet after years of watching Carragher you can't even recognise that he's made enormous progress, from being a utility player who was up and down in the late Nineties, to being a superb CB today. The idea that he was always top drawer is .

And what's a 1-4-2 formation? Don't remember that one, but you see more than the rest of us, obviously

Stu.Murph wrote:

s@int wrote:

dawson99 wrote:So if woodgate is 7 million but injury prone, who else of his calibre could we get for the same kind of money?

Probably no-one with his proven ability, experience, quality etc. He was discount price for a reason, he's a gamble because of fitness problems not on his ability.

I still think people are panicking over Agger too much. He struggled against Drogba but he didnt stop trying didn't take the easy way out and get sent off. He got a footballing lesson against Chelsea, but for me he reacted well on the night. We need to see now if he has learned his lesson, and how well he reacts. FFS Drogba ripped Sammi apart when they won 4-1 and has been a handfull for most CB'S all season.

The two areas of Aggers game that need improvement are his heading and his strength. His heading can be improved but he's never going to be another Sammi , his strength will come as he matures. His distribution while not "Hansonesque" as some were saying is still better than most CB'S.

Lets see how he plays the next few games ,as it will tell us almost everything we need to know about his charactor, and my money is on him passing the test.

Apart from Hyypia had the flu that game saint, lets not forget that.

Yeah I knew that mate    Editorial license.

Its just started to irritate me a bit the way people build players up as if they were Pele and after a  bad game or bad patch make out they are Traore.

Reina
Arbeloa
Agger
Kuyt
Sissiko
Crouch
ETC.

They have all been the best thing since sliced bread and then become last months mouldy cheese.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Fowler_E7 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:the other question I suppose I should have asked, if not Woodgate who?

i cant think of any obvious names that spring to mind, but i wouldnt mind a centre back with some good experience (around 28/29) being signed to come in to add to the competion for places. Also someone of that age would be good to step in for when Agger loses form. Agger is still only 22 and will have a few more terrible games like he did the other night before he is a top class central defender, BUT i believe he will come good and be as consistent as the other top Defenders in the league.

Not a cat in hells chance.

He's not good enough and that performance the other night shown exactly what I've been saying about the lad all season. If he's singled out and attacked by a good player he'll struggle because he's not upto it. Thats exactly what happened.

People will say its only one bad game, but the point is with players like Carragher, Alonso and Gerrard that that simply does not happen to them.

Ade wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Ade wrote:Stu, Carra had a few dodgy games earlier in his career - he even scored two own goals in one game against the Mancs, which might be a record. And the fact that he was shunted around as a utility defender and makeshift defensive midfielder tells you that he needed time to mature. And over the past 3 seasons, given that time and patience, he has been magnificent.

Agger will come good. Drogba has made a mess of a lot of defenders over the past two years, and Dan didn't get the best back-up from his fullbacks on Weds. Him and Carra are fine, it's LB, the wingers and two new strikers we need. You go hunting for a world-class CB with our new American bankrollers and you'll be stumping up nearly £10m for a player we don't need.

Finnan is also top-quality and was badly missed against Chelsea.

He never had dodgy games at all. Thats was peoples completely wrong perception of the lad because he was playing in defence on his own when Liverpool went through the stage of playing a 1-4-2 formation.

Carragher was immense them first few years and i dread to think how bad our defence would have been without him there. Its not even worth thinking about. Myself and a mate of mine used to say untill he moved back to centre half regularly, how the only players who ever got the better of him were Pires and Henry and he marked players like Giggs, Beckham, Robert, Kewell etc etc out of games consistently.

That game against the Mancs aswell, neither of those own goals were his fault and if one player around him had bothered there to even attempt to do their job none of those incidents would have happened.

I'd rather the arguement saying the fact he was shunted around shown he was already mature as to the fact he held his own ahead of specialist players like Zeige, Babbel etc etc. He shown his maturity from day one.

As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

Simple as that.

, he was shaky at times and the idea that it was the fault of everyone around him, all the time, never Carra's fault… do me a favour.

You're gambling on being the first to 'out' a player who's not gonna make it, ie Agger, and yet after years of watching Carragher you can't even recognise that he's made enormous progress, from being a utility player who was up and down in the late Nineties, to being a superb CB today. The idea that he was always top drawer is .

And what's a 1-4-2 formation? Don't remember that one, but you see more than the rest of us, obviously

Bad Bob wrote:

dawson99 wrote:Alonso never had a bad bad game? i take it you were watching a different game this week?

Well, I guess I was watching a different game too as I thought Alonso was solid.  Would all those who feel Alonso had a shocker care to provide some evidence to support this conclusion?  Just what did he do that was so poor? 

Stu.Murph wrote:

Ade wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Ade wrote:Stu, Carra had a few dodgy games earlier in his career - he even scored two own goals in one game against the Mancs, which might be a record. And the fact that he was shunted around as a utility defender and makeshift defensive midfielder tells you that he needed time to mature. And over the past 3 seasons, given that time and patience, he has been magnificent.

Agger will come good. Drogba has made a mess of a lot of defenders over the past two years, and Dan didn't get the best back-up from his fullbacks on Weds. Him and Carra are fine, it's LB, the wingers and two new strikers we need. You go hunting for a world-class CB with our new American bankrollers and you'll be stumping up nearly £10m for a player we don't need.

Finnan is also top-quality and was badly missed against Chelsea.

He never had dodgy games at all. Thats was peoples completely wrong perception of the lad because he was playing in defence on his own when Liverpool went through the stage of playing a 1-4-2 formation.

Carragher was immense them first few years and i dread to think how bad our defence would have been without him there. Its not even worth thinking about. Myself and a mate of mine used to say untill he moved back to centre half regularly, how the only players who ever got the better of him were Pires and Henry and he marked players like Giggs, Beckham, Robert, Kewell etc etc out of games consistently.

That game against the Mancs aswell, neither of those own goals were his fault and if one player around him had bothered there to even attempt to do their job none of those incidents would have happened.

I'd rather the arguement saying the fact he was shunted around shown he was already mature as to the fact he held his own ahead of specialist players like Zeige, Babbel etc etc. He shown his maturity from day one.

As I've said a million times, my opinion of Carragher has never ever changed. I find it laughable how people say he used to be and now he's great. The fact is he's always been the same and he never shows anything now (except experience) he didn't show in his earlier days.

Simple as that.

, he was shaky at times and the idea that it was the fault of everyone around him, all the time, never Carra's fault… do me a favour.

You're gambling on being the first to 'out' a player who's not gonna make it, ie Agger, and yet after years of watching Carragher you can't even recognise that he's made enormous progress, from being a utility player who was up and down in the late Nineties, to being a superb CB today. The idea that he was always top drawer is .

And what's a 1-4-2 formation? Don't remember that one, but you see more than the rest of us, obviously

What utter and absoloute childish rubbish you are prattling about something you clearly know absoloutely nothing about. Give me examples of when he was "shaky" because I for one Certainly didn't see it. I remember him playing at full back and struggling to overlap, I also remember a lack of technical ability hindering our attack, but I never once remember a mistake against other players than Pires or Henry. That includes Giggs, Beckham, Kewell, Duff, Robert, Overmars and just about any other winger you'd care to mention.

I tell you what, lets put any 18 year old at the back with McAteer, Kvarme, Babb and Matteo and see how they fair. Infact, lets put Woodgate, Ferdinand etc in there or any other class centre half.

The fact is they would all struggle with players of that calibre around them and you're coming on here telling me an 18 year old centre back was "shaky"? Do me a favour!

Jamie Carragher when he first came through was excellent and completely failed to get the recognition he deserved due to idiots like yourself.

Players don't ever become something they are not. They never learn to be a different player or gain attributes they never had.

From day one Jamie Carraghers been about passion, commitment, solid defending and ability to read the game and snuff out danger. He's exactly the same player now but with a bit more confidence and experience.

End of discussion.