Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:47 pm

Some fair points, Bamaga Man--I think Kuyt does have more goals in him and I hope we start to see more of that from him as he settles. I think this issue of him settling is important. Because he is a workhorse and a endeared himself to the supporters from day one I think it's easy to forget that he's still getting aclimatized to the league. I expect we'll see more of what he's capable of in front of goal toward the end of the season and into next season, particularly as his strike partners and the midfield work out his movement and runs.

But, I think it's also important to recognize that he's not been asked (presumably) to be the fox-in-the-box striker or the guy who plays off the last defender. I think he's more of the classic #10...the link between midfield and attack--the one who creates chances for the likes of Stevie and his strike partners (as with the knock-down for Bellamy which led to Crouch's first on Saturday). You mentioned RVN but I think he's more in the mould of Denis Bergkamp (although not quite on that level). Sure, Bergkamp could score some lovely goals but he was more about linking play and spotting the passes that unlocked defenses and set up his teammates. That's where Kuyt will shine for us.

As for rotation, I agree that he could be rotated more to give our team some "different options." I'd be inclined to swap him and Crouch every so often, partnering Bellamy or Fowler. It does seem, though, as though he's Rafa's first choice (more evidence that he's doing the job that Rafa gave to him).

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:58 pm

You mentioned RVN but I think he's more in the mould of Denis Bergkamp (although not quite on that level). Sure, Bergkamp could score some lovely goals but he was more about linking play and spotting the passes that unlocked defenses and set up his teammates. That's where Kuyt will shine for us.

I wasnt suggesting Kuyt was a similar type of player to RVN Bob. As they are totally different, what I was saying was out of the two styles I'd opt for RVN. I'm not even that old, but I prefer the old style of strikers like your Rush's, Linekers and so on. To do the job of getting you goals and being selfish about it. I think managers today can complicate teams and tactics with unorthodox styles at times.

He plays or reminds me of a Peter Beardsley type player, and he got his fair share of goals. But infront of Beardsley we'd have someone like Rush or Aldridge who were out and out strikers. But today we dont have those out and out strikers and I suppose thats why I'd like to see us compensate that by playing him in a more orthodox role, or play Robbie more. Lets face it as goal threat goes from midfield we only have Gerrad really. And possibly we'd also have Bellamy or Crouch to chip in. But out of eleven players two at a time in the team only pose a threat. Thats like scatting on thin ice, because neither Bellamy or Crouch are prolific and Gerrard also. And because of this I can see at times over this season and in the future we'll have the possibilty of goals drying up.

by **ConnO'var** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:10 pm

Fair points Bamagaman.....

However, I think that Dirk definitely has the potential to be a 20-goal-a-season frontman.... IMO, it's the way we're set up at the mo that necessitates him playing as deep as he does... Whether it's Rafa's intruction that he does so is irelevant imo... I think that with the squad we have right now, he's got to do it..... We're offering no or insufficient width in attack and we're looking most dangerous straight down the middle..... somebodys got to help out deep so hat we can draw out the centreback and leave space for the other, much quicker striker we have to exploit.. If Dirk plays too much upfront, I feel that it clogs up the space up top and reduces Bellamy's effectiveness....

Against the better sides, we get exposed and can become to one-dimensional in attack with this approach.... With more quality in the wings, Dirk should be able to get his 20 odd goals no problems.... From what I've seen of the lad, he's sound in the air and is quick on the draw with his shots. Relieved of the shackles that is a resultant of the need to come from deep, Dirk will bang 'em in for sure....

A good buy who gives a 110% everytime he's on the pitch...... Couln't be more pleased with lad..... sure, it'll be nice if he got a few more but as I said, I believe its more because of the way we're set-up then his deficiencies....

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:01 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
You mentioned RVN but I think he's more in the mould of Denis Bergkamp (although not quite on that level). Sure, Bergkamp could score some lovely goals but he was more about linking play and spotting the passes that unlocked defenses and set up his teammates. That's where Kuyt will shine for us.

I wasnt suggesting Kuyt was a similar type of player to RVN Bob. As they are totally different, what I was saying was out of the two styles I'd opt for RVN. I'm not even that old, but I prefer the old style of strikers like your Rush's, Linekers and so on. To do the job of getting you goals and being selfish about it. I think managers today can complicate teams and tactics with unorthodox styles at times.

He plays or reminds me of a Peter Beardsley type player, and he got his fair share of goals. But infront of Beardsley we'd have someone like Rush or Aldridge who were out and out strikers. But today we dont have those out and out strikers and I suppose thats why I'd like to see us compensate that by playing him in a more orthodox role, or play Robbie more. Lets face it as goal threat goes from midfield we only have Gerrad really. And possibly we'd also have Bellamy or Crouch to chip in. But out of eleven players two at a time in the team only pose a threat. Thats like scatting on thin ice, because neither Bellamy or Crouch are prolific and Gerrard also. And because of this I can see at times over this season and in the future we'll have the possibilty of goals drying up.

Sounds to me, mate, like you should be asking your questions of Bellamy rather than Kuyt, then. I think Kuyt is more suited to the linking striker role and isn't likely to ever be an RVN, Rushie, Owen etc. type player. If you're worried about goal-scoring, I'd be looking at who partners Kuyt and asking whether they are prolific enough. If Bellamy's not going to bang in 20 each season and if Robbie is effective but past his best, maybe we need to be hunting for the next Owen/Rush etc. to partner Dirk?

Now, personally, I'm not saying Bellamy's not good enough (nor Crouch for that matter). What I am saying is that, if the required investment comes in and we sort out our other problem areas first (the wide positions especially, which as Conn'Ovar rightly notes, are not performing at a level that helps Kuyt out)...we should make an effort to find a prolific striker to partner Kuyt and take full advantage of his linking play. With Kuyt linking play, a striker of the calibre of David Villa banging them in and Bellamy and Crouch* ready to come on to offer differing options, we'd look pretty formidable up top.

*As much as I love Fowler and as much as I think he still has goals in him, I can see him retiring in the next season or two and taking up a coaching role (rather than moving to another club). Were we to bring a top class striker, I think he'd retire soon thereafter, as the writing's already on the wall as far as where he fits into Rafa's pecking order of strikers.

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:18 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
A.B. wrote:Kuyt is everything that Crouch isn't. He has a better first touch, better vision, better distribution of the ball, more strength, overall more ability.

Granted Crouch has scored more goals than Kuyt in all competitions [Kuyt has scored more in the Premiership].

HOWEVER Cisse scored more goals than any of our other strikers last year and he wasn't our best striker by any means.

And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

Give Rafa a ring and tell him that.

So what should a striker do .......... Oh mighty one?

Another mister no it all, but knows not alot and runs on stats

If he's being picked more than Crouch is than doesn't that say something about what the manager wants.

If a manager sells a striker who scored 20 goals than doesn't that tell you that he wants more than just goals?

Did this manager not say that he would prefer if every player gets 10 goals so we aren't depending on one particular player?

Is this not the manager that didn't pay up for Michael Owen [a goalscorer] as he didn't believe that he was worth what Madrid wanted?

What does that tell you?

by **Crouchamania** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:27 pm

Imo Kuyt will get a lot of goals for us. I don't think he'll be in the Rush/Fowler category but i doubt he'll be going down the Morientes, or worse, Diouf route.

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:30 pm

If Benitez wanted a pure out goalscorer he would had signed one already [Michael Owen would be playing for us].

by **Simari** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:04 pm

For the most part, I don't think we have a serious problem scoring goals as a team. Going by goals scored stats, we are 6 behind Chelsea and 8 behind Arsenal.

That I would put down to 2 reasons:

1. An indifferent start to the season, 1 goal in 5 away games
2. The team as a whole bottling up against the other 3 big teams.

As far as 2 is concerned, I firmly believe that there is a mental block that the team needs to overcome. Kuyt has been outstanding in the games against the other 3, and that level of determination needs to flow through the rest of the team (including Gerrard, who is often hot/cold on big games in the League)

For the record, over the past 2.5 seasons, our goals record against chelsea/scum/arsenal combined is 7-24. That is, 7 goals in 15 games ....

Edit: To put that last statement into perspective:

F A
Arsenal 15 19
Man U. 17 12
Chelsea 23 7
Liverpool 7 24

by **stmichael** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:32 pm

He might not have had the best of games on Saturday but Kuyt is still an important player in this team. His work rate along with Bellamy really set the tempo of the team, ensuring closing down occurs through out the team. But what I think is odd that the media haven’t noticed is the position in which Kuyt is playing. He isn’t playing directly upfront he most often found in the gap between midfield and attack linking play, the ‘Aimar / Beardsley role’. On Saturday he was basically playing in a front three, a system in which he struggled at the World Cup in the summer.

Rafa has said in the past there is not much difference between the 4-4-2 he has used at Liverpool and the 4-2-3-1 formation adopted while at Valencia. The difference is whether the second striker plays right upfront with the partner or slightly behind. I think recently the system has looked far more like 4-2-3-1 than 4-4-2. Certainly while defending Kuyt is deep and pressuring the opposition midfielders as well as front men. But when we have possession he is mostly found in the gap, where it is hard for him to be marked and picked up.

He might not have the technique or class of Aimar, Litmanen or Bergkamp but then again he scores more goals than most of them. But he is an unorthodox ‘link man’ who will create as well as score. He is a ‘link man’ who is suitable for the Premiership unlike the talented Aimar, who might lack the physical presence.

No one criticised Bergkamp for not scoring enough goals or not working hard enough. Kuyt scores, creates, makes space with his movement, links midfield and attack and is turning into an important player. I don’t think he should be judged by the amount of goals he scores this season, not that I think he will be. To me he is our Aimar, suitable for the Premiership, playing in a very similar role. Maybe Rafa has adapted his Valencia crushing machine system, by incorporating players more suitable to the Premiership.

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:55 pm

Kuyt is an essential player for us if we are to do anything this season. He has settled fantastically well to what is a very difficult league, has scored goals, has looked ready for the physical demands of the premiership and he links well with the likes of Gerrard and Bellamy.

IMO a very good signing from Rafa. He might not get 20 goals this season but he has a good few goals in him between now and May. Mark my words!!

by **Scottbot** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:25 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Now, personally, I'm not saying Bellamy's not good enough (nor Crouch for that matter). What I am saying is that, if the required investment comes in and we sort out our other problem areas first (the wide positions especially, which as Conn'Ovar rightly notes, are not performing at a level that helps Kuyt out)...we should make an effort to find a prolific striker to partner Kuyt and take full advantage of his linking play. With Kuyt linking play, a striker of the calibre of David Villa banging them in and Bellamy and Crouch* ready to come on to offer differing options, we'd look pretty formidable up top.

*As much as I love Fowler and as much as I think he still has goals in him, I can see him retiring in the next season or two and taking up a coaching role (rather than moving to another club). Were we to bring a top class striker, I think he'd retire soon thereafter, as the writing's already on the wall as far as where he fits into Rafa's pecking order of strikers.

That sounds about right to me. The boss could ask Kuyt to stay high and central but it's clear his natural game is about non-stop movement, linking play, dropping deep and running the channels. I'm sure he could do a job as a box player but i wouldn't want him to change. I've been VERY impressed with Kuyt from day one, he's got a lot going for him. His workrate is as good as any striker i've seen, he's technically very good, makes intelligent runs, rarely loses the ball, has a decent shot and appears to have adapted instantly to the physical nature of football in England. On the down-side he isn't the quickest (not saying he's slow) and he doesn't look like the greatest header of a ball.

I agree with those who say he will get better. It's common to hear posters on here asking for others to be patient with Aurelio and Gonzalez and the same should apply to Kuyt. We've not seen is best game yet.

Also agree that we will probably see the very best of Kuyt if and when Rafa gets the money to bring in someone like David Villa (a player i rate very highly) to take on a greater share of the goal burden.

by **lakes10** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:31 pm

next year is going to be a big year for him, he has not done too bad this year (2006/2007) and he was only finding his feet.

by **metalhead** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:54 pm

stmichael wrote:He might not have had the best of games on Saturday but Kuyt is still an important player in this team. His work rate along with Bellamy really set the tempo of the team, ensuring closing down occurs through out the team. But what I think is odd that the media haven’t noticed is the position in which Kuyt is playing. He isn’t playing directly upfront he most often found in the gap between midfield and attack linking play, the ‘Aimar / Beardsley role’. On Saturday he was basically playing in a front three, a system in which he struggled at the World Cup in the summer.

Rafa has said in the past there is not much difference between the 4-4-2 he has used at Liverpool and the 4-2-3-1 formation adopted while at Valencia. The difference is whether the second striker plays right upfront with the partner or slightly behind. I think recently the system has looked far more like 4-2-3-1 than 4-4-2. Certainly while defending Kuyt is deep and pressuring the opposition midfielders as well as front men. But when we have possession he is mostly found in the gap, where it is hard for him to be marked and picked up.

He might not have the technique or class of Aimar, Litmanen or Bergkamp but then again he scores more goals than most of them. But he is an unorthodox ‘link man’ who will create as well as score. He is a ‘link man’ who is suitable for the Premiership unlike the talented Aimar, who might lack the physical presence.

No one criticised Bergkamp for not scoring enough goals or not working hard enough. Kuyt scores, creates, makes space with his movement, links midfield and attack and is turning into an important player. I don’t think he should be judged by the amount of goals he scores this season, not that I think he will be. To me he is our Aimar, suitable for the Premiership, playing in a very similar role. Maybe Rafa has adapted his Valencia crushing machine system, by incorporating players more suitable to the Premiership.

Aye, good points on the aimar-kuyt comparison.

Good player kuyt, works hard for the team, listens to his manager and he plays with passion and character.

by **Fowler_E7** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:43 am

Personally i think Crouch and Kuyt are both good strikers but as mentioned by a few others they both play quite deep and do most of there work outside of the box. This isnt a bad thing as both do there jobs well, but IMO it dosnt work when they play together or with Bellamy as none of them get into the box enough or a clynical finshers. The only penalty box out and out goalscorer we have in the squad is Robbie Fowler, who has been criminally under used this season IMO. With the amount of chances weve been creating this season, especially from crosses i think Fowler would have scored a lot of goals this season, if he had the same amount of starts of say Bellamy, who always seems to play even though he has the lowest goal threat IMO.

Back to Kuyt. He does a lot for the team and has enough quality about him to play the way he does and still score 15 league goals, and i think he would be the perfect partner for a more traditional penalty box striker.

by **Smeg** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:58 am

Bamaga man wrote:
A.B. wrote:Kuyt is everything that Crouch isn't. He has a better first touch, better vision, better distribution of the ball, more strength, overall more ability.

Granted Crouch has scored more goals than Kuyt in all competitions [Kuyt has scored more in the Premiership].

HOWEVER Cisse scored more goals than any of our other strikers last year and he wasn't our best striker by any means.

And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

Give Rafa a ring and tell him that.

So what should a striker do .......... Oh mighty one?

Another mister no it all, but knows not alot and runs on stats

If you think Crouch is a better footballer that Kuyt you are a complete tool.

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