Liverpool FC Forum

by **shanks72** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:48 pm

I think Israel is totally justified in it's response to the kidnapping of the two soldiers and the intermittent firing of rockets into her land.
Israel can't win, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!
People are dying in Israel as well, and they didn't start this in the beginning.
If the two soldiers had been returned, this war would not be happening now, I believe.
I can understand Israel saying 'right you're gonna get it now and I for one can't blame them.
Although I don't agree with war, I can see their point of view,
or their govt's at least. I don't believe the Israeli people want this war, just as the people in the Lebanon don't want it.

Israel gave up land on the gazza strip for peace, but things just seem to be getting worse.
I don't think they should have given up the land as I believe it was part of the land God promised to them.
But they did it to appease their neighbours and promote peace, but this action hardly seems to be recognised by the muslim world
and they are still condemned.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:48 pm

Also, How on earth can Israel say the targeting of UN observers was not deliberate when the base was hit by a precision guided missile!

No but seriously, there must be a better way to do this, Israel must have other agendas, this mass destruction could have been avoided.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:50 pm

Well now there is no use returning these soldiers as it wont help - so much damage is done! They should have thought about it before.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:51 pm

Both Israel and Hezb will not win this war - the end result is a 1000 Lebanese deaths.... pathetic and those who call this Jihad may need to look up the meaning again.

Every war has a justifiable goal - whats the Israeli goal here ? Destroy Hezb ? - sorry that wont happen. The Hezb is too deep rooted here - more fighters will take place of their fallen comarades. So whats Hezb's goal ? To get concessions out of Israel ! Will that happen - NO ! so who suffers in the end ? The Lebanese civilians - the innocents.

by **shanks72** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:53 pm

That's what I'm saying, If the soldiers had been returned by Hizballah, then none of the would be happening!
Although, Israel would still have to deal with the rocket attacks into her land, but before the soldiers, they hadn't taken any action, had they.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:55 pm

So what did you expect, the soldieries to be handed over? Get real!

And you think this is the first kidnapping? It has been happening on both sides since 2000, this has very little to do with the soldiers being captured.

by **kobashi** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:55 pm

The Jews love to talk as if they are peace loving and want to live in peace with the Arabs. Pure BS. The British and the UN gave Palestine to the Jews with no regard to the population already their. So damn right the Arabs went to war with the zionists (even though these were phony wars). How can you say "The British promised the land to the Jews" when it wasnt up to them. Lawrence of Arabia also promised the Arabs the land and they stupidly fought with him against the Ottoman Caliphate (not allowed in Islam) yet his promises also mean nothing as it wasnt up to him.

Zionism is the problem and well before WW1 and WW2 they wanted Palestine. They say the Muslims or Arabs are full of hatred yet forget what the zionists are:

Whenever Muslims talk about liberating Palestine and dismantling the illegal entity of Israel Muslims are charged with anti-Semitism. However Muslims reject completely the charge of anti-Semitism because Islam is a message directed to all humankind. However, at the same time we completely reject Zionism represented in the form of Israel and Muslims worldwide are opposed to the continued occupation of Palestine by the Israeli State.

The state of Israel is founded upon a land that was taken by force, after its people were driven out, both Muslim and Christian. This is injustice, which can never be accepted from an Islamic perspective, regardless of the race of the perpetrators. In Palestine, Islam is in conflict with Israelis – not in their capacity as Jews who historically had lived alongside Muslims in peace and security for centuries – but in their capacity as occupiers and aggressors.

History is testament to the fact that Jews lived with Muslims under the banner of Islam for almost thirteen centuries. Throughout those periods Jews used to have the same high standard of living as the Muslims did. They enjoyed equal rights, prosperity, happiness, tranquillity and security. The aspiration is to see this situation emerge again but it cannot happen until the Zionist entity of Israel is replaced.

On the other hand Israeli leadership have never concealed their hatred of Muslims and have been calling for the destruction of the Muslims since the very beginning and its current invasion of Gaza is better understood in this context than its false pretence of seeking the return of one of its occupying soldiers.

The quotes from a series of leading Zionist leaders are reproduced below and require no further comment.

David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963

We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - present

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

The Ottoman Caliphate was so right: The return of the Khilafah is the answer!!!

"Advise Dr. Herzl not to take any further steps in his project. I can not give away a handful of the soil of this land for it is not my own, it is for all the Islamic Nation. The Islamic Nation that fought Jihad for the sake of this land and they have watered it with their blood. The Jews may keep their money and millions. If the Islamic Khalifah State is one day destroyed then they will be able to take Palestine without a price! But while I am alive, I would rather push a sword into my body than see the land of Palestine cut and given away from the Islamic State. This is something that will not be, I will not start cutting our bodies while we are alive." - Sultan Abdul Hameed's refusal to see Theodor Herzl, founder of the Zionist movement

by **metalhead** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:24 pm

Amit We wrote:or maybe ,IstanBuL-FenerBaHce, you can tell us about the feelings millions of israeli residents who wakes up to the sound of rockets falling in their cities, or about the moms worried for their sons, or about the feelings of a family losing her dad after a suicide bomber decided to explode in the resturant he was eating at.
To refresh your memory,Hizbollah kiddnaped 2 soldiers for no reason- There was no attack on Lebanon what so ever, after the kiddnaping, Hizbollah fired rockets to Israel, again, after no attack from Israel.
The IDF tried to hit only things that Hizbollah uses, and if some of the civilians of Lebanon got hurt, well- it's the price of the war. Maybe you don't know, but a few days ago more than 10 israeli soldiers were killed in attack of Hizbollah. This attack,as many others, happend when the terrorists wore civilians clothes and shot from houses on isrelis passing by.

In my opinion,the israeli attack is justified, and you can not tell how it is to live in Israel, so you don't have the right to judge us.

Or maybe you can ask me what i have experienced in the last 2 weeks? I'm Lebanese, Live in Beirut, in Beer Hasan, next to "Dahye" where all the jetfighters are hitting it! I heard all these explosions and rockets destroying that neighborhood.

and Hizballah kidnapping the 2 soldiers for no reason is b*ll sh*t! Ok, i know the kidnapping was a really stupid things to do, but i'm afraid you my fellow israelians have some lebanese people prisoned from the year 1982, that makes it, what 24 years! Hizballah captured these prisoners to have a trade with Israel for our lebanese prisoners. Ok i admit, it was a stupid thing to do! but it caused a huge uproad in Israel and so the destruction began! Your asking for peace, but this is how you ask for peace? bloodshed? destruction? destroying our communication our infrastructure? this is how you want peace? I mean come on, i was checking out the israelian poll today and 82% of the people want war! If you really want peace, then act peacefully, not going nuts and destroying your neighboring country.

Plus, Israel fired first into lebanon and hizballah warned israel if they hit beirut they will hit haifa.They kept warning them until it was too much. Now again are Israel really targeting the hizballah rocket sites? if so, why are there about 100 rockets fired everyday into northern israel? 10 israeli soldiers were killed because they were in Lebanese territory, Hizballah were defending the south of lebanon thats why! Hizballah are attacking within their area taking back their village. Look fellow israelians your asking for peace, then tell your government to act in a peaceful way and not in hatered. Hizballah are asking for negotiation but your asking an open war so hizballah gave you an open war, do you want that? I agree with Cool Hand Luke on everything! Hizballah will never give the soldiers back until there has been an exchange.

The fact is every Israeli prime minister has exchanged prisoners before with Hezbollah, even Sharon.

Not for one minute do I believe that this bombarding of Lebanon is due to 2 uniformed Israeli soldiers being captured on the Israel/Lebanon border.

True, in 1996, there was a 10 day war between hizballah and israel, but then a ceasefire and they reached an agreement with exchanging prisoners. If you guys think that hitting us or destroying us to make us turn against hizballah, then your wrong because it made us hate you even more and support hizballah on carrying attacks on israel. the Lebanese government are talking about a peace treaty with israel, but the hatered will stay for a long time. I for one won't forget what Israel did to my beautiful country.

by **kobashi** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:31 pm

There is actually no evidence which proves Hezbollah crossed into Zionist territory to capture the soldiers. early reports siad they were captured in South Lebanon after the Zonists crossed the border.

by **metalhead** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:33 pm

kobashi wrote:There is actually no evidence which proves Hezbollah crossed into Zionist territory to capture the soldiers. early reports siad they were captured in South Lebanon after the Zonists crossed the border.

I thought the samething, but im checking what happened again, i need to ask one of my political friends

by **mgabby** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:04 am

Cool Hand Luke wrote:Also, How on earth can Israel say the targeting of UN observers was not deliberate when the base was hit by a precision guided missile!

No but seriously, there must be a better way to do this, Israel must have other agendas, this mass destruction could have been avoided.

Those things happen when you are in war.
Same thing with English cop killing a Brazilian man just after the July 7th attack, thinking he is a terrorist.

Same with american bombings in Iraq.

And hey, how many people did the english RAF killed in Germany? Was destroying German cities so important in beating Germany?
Same is here with Beirut. If hizbollah hides in Beirut - we will get them there.
The lebaneas governmant didnt do anything with them, so we have to deal with them.
It is sad to look at Beirut these days, but Lebanon coul'd not allow having a terror organization in the south.
Think about Israel having a military unit that will fire missiles at Lebanon, and our governmant just say "it is not our army - we can't deal with them" ...

by **mhaifa** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:07 am

You are just lucky that Ehud Ulmert is the prime minister....
if Ariel Sharon was the Prime Minister, Lebanon was history....

18 days, each day 100 rockets, 2 soldiers captured....i think this is one of the most justified wars.

and the only thing that make my angry is to see our men there getting killed, because the Israeli Army is the most humane army in the world, and insted of bombing city after city in the South of Lebanon from the air, we doing it with regular soldiers, because we don't want to kill innocent....

just for you guys to know, every time before a jet is going to bomb, the citizens are getting an announcement that a bomb is coming, and they have enought time to escape....not like the other side, who just bomb cities and innocents.

I hope that this war will not over until Hizzbala will be history.

by **Sabre** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:13 am

just for you guys to know, every time before a jet is going to bomb, the citizens are getting an announcement that a bomb is coming, and they have enought time to escape....not like the other side, who just bomb cities and innocents.

Under normal circunstances, I would consider this statement a joke.

But after watching this campaign of terror led by Israel, children killed, U.N watchers killed after 10 requests to stop the bombing from U.N, I find it insulting. I just can't accept the "this things happen at war" sentence when it's a known fact that Israel knew that the watchers were there.

And I'm fúcking tired of the response of international comunity. It's true that U.S.A blocks any diplomatic effort, but it's also true that each country could retire their ambassadors and cut diplomatic relationships with Israel ( That's what I'd do right now), yet nobody does that. Money and good relationship with power seem to be more important than dignity. :no

by **matrix** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:18 am

Sabre wrote:
just for you guys to know, every time before a jet is going to bomb, the citizens are getting an announcement that a bomb is coming, and they have enought time to escape....not like the other side, who just bomb cities and innocents.

Under normal circunstances, I would consider this statement a joke.

But after watching this campaign of terror led by Israel, children killed, U.N watchers killed after 10 requests to stop the bombing from U.N, I find it insulting. I just can't accept the "this things happen at war" sentence when it's a known fact that Israel knew that the watchers were there.

And I'm fúcking tired of the response of international comunity. It's true that U.S.A blocks any diplomatic effort, but it's also true that each country could retire their ambassadors and cut diplomatic relationships with Israel ( That's what I'd do right now), yet nobody does that. Money and good relationship with power seem to be more important than dignity.

great post sabre... :no

by **IstanBuL-FenerBaHce** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:27 am

mhaifa wrote:

You are just lucky that Ehud Ulmert is the prime minister....
if Ariel Sharon was the Prime Minister, Lebanon was history....

Oh yea, we know your Sharon the Butcher of Beirut! :angry:

Im not sad that he is in the hell now..

(Oh some people make me talk like i'm a facist..thats not me :no

)

18 days, each day 100 rockets, 2 soldiers captured....i think this is one of the most justified wars.

I supposed that Helenistic civilization are mother of justice and democracy...But i noticed i was wrong, Israel is great when the subject is "justice" :bowdown

because the Israeli Army is the most humane army in the world,

I want to be a barbar with the new day.. :veryangry

every time before a jet is going to bomb, the citizens are getting an announcement that a bomb is coming, and they have enought time to escape....not like the other side, who just bomb cities and innocents.

Oh we're grateful, you're so kind...Would your airforces send a greetingcard at my birthday? My address is...

BTW, the announcement is got by Lebanon radars, by their defence system!..Thats an alarm, not your favour :help

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