Liverpool FC Forum

by **adayinthelife** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:53 am

stu_the_red wrote:
I agree and Carragher is a good example as he is not blessed with natural ability but makes up for it with his determination and attitude.

Put Carragher in the third division and he'd ****** on 90% of every player in that league on every attribute.

Same goes for Kewell.

Its not a ridiculous statement at all. A question, have you ever played the game to a good standard?

Average division 2 players in our country are as skillfull if not more so than me if thats there weakness. If its there strength they'd make me look stupid.

Its comment like these that get my back up.

So you are saying that every player in the lower divisions are lazy

That is the only way Kewell works harder than them all.

We say the last few seasons when Carragher was playing at right back that once he went past the half way line he was lost.

Again you are saying that most players in the lower divisions are not as good as Carragher in all attacking attributes

I haven't played higher than schools level but whats your point

You only have to look at the many commentators and pundits who all played at the highest level yet who talk sh ite with that gimp lawrenson being 1 of the worst.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:15 am

[quote]So you are saying that every player in the lower divisions are lazy

That is the only way Kewell works harder than them all.

We say the last few seasons when Carragher was playing at right back that once he went past the half way line he was lost.

Again you are saying that most players in the lower divisions are not as good as Carragher in all attacking attributes

I haven't played higher than schools level but whats your point

You only have to look at the many commentators and pundits who all played at the highest level yet who talk sh ite with that gimp lawrenson being 1 of the worst.
[quote]

You're wrong. Kewell works quite hard. He's not a worker like Savage or Gerrard or Bowyer, but you're talking the world best at these attributes. The gap between the world best at something and a division 3 standard is huge. Look at the gap between Murphy and Zidane as players for an example. The gap between them is tiny compared to the gap you are talking about. Third division to Premiership is an unbelievable gap. Zidane is the worlds best Murphy is a decent prem player. The gaps the same for attributes. Gerrards the hardest worker in world say (probably one of) Kewells an average premiership worker.

And yes i am sayin that about Carragher. Jamie is playing against players like Ferdinand and Campbell and Pires. Not Darren Ferguson. You put Carragher in a sunday league side and he'd be the best at EVERYTHING by a country mile. He'd be the quickest, fittest, cleverest, strongest, most aggressive, best technically and have the best attitude. Its the same with a third division side. He'd be leagues ahead.

Use championship manager as an example. I don't agree with there ratings for some players attributes. But Carraghers weaknesses would be 11, 12, 13 out of 20. a third division players strengths would be 10, 11, 12 out of 20.

Gerrard work rate 20
Zidane work rate 11
Kewell work rate 12
Baros work rate 16
average division 3 players work rate 9/10.

Playing at a high level helps you understand the gap more. and what is actually needed. If you saw two of the lads i know who HAVEN'T made it you would understand what i mean.

I do agree with your point on Lawro, but thats a different matter. He's judging premiership to premiership, he'd judge premiership to third division the same way i would.

by **adayinthelife** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:39 am

Now you are using a computer game to back up your arguement :laugh:

So you are saying Carragher is stronger than every player in the lower divisions

So Carragher could squat,deadlift and bench press more than any player in the lower divisions

I doubt that.

As for Kewell in our team at the moment he is the laziest player and sticks out a mile although I will give him the benefit and say some of it is down to a lack of confidence.

Again you are saying every player in the lower divisions doesn't work as hard as he does yet I am sure there are many who work alot harder every week.

You seem to think that to be a top league player that they must be way above average in every attribute which I disagree with.

So by your thinking then Carragher is a better finisher and free kick taker than every player in the lower divisions

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:03 am

Yes that is my thinking.

You seem to think that to be a top league player that they must be way above average in every attribute which I disagree with.

Thats because they do. Seriously. Even division one stanard players and lower premiership players are oustanding players.

Obviously theres the ODD player who's going to have something better i'm not doubting that. As for strength, theres a lad who's 14 stone i play with he's 6'4 and is big lad. He's very phyiscally strong, yet when we play football i push him around. I'm 6'2 and 12 stone, its ALOT different on the pitch.

Anyone who has experience of this will back up what i'm saying.

Also an example, Muzzy Izzet. He scored LOADS of free kicks for leicester and got LOADS of assists from corners and set pieces. Yet in the premier leauge he's no more than DECENT at them. Again i'll say it, its a DIFFERENT standard completely.

Like i've said, the gap is IMMENSE. These players in the premiership ESPECIALLY at the top are unbelievable players. Thats why they are there. Like i said, i'm quick and skillfull, yet when i played with division 2 standard players, they were ALL as skillfull and quick with extra strengths that i simply couldn't get near. I held my own but obviously wasn't good enough to get picked.

That was Wrexham. I now am not even good enough to play for Marine yet on a sunday league pitch i stand out. Marine are 4 or 5 divisions below Wrexham.

You clearly don't understand the gap and the quality of these players. And i was using a computer game to put figures into an arguement to help you understand yet you are blindly dismissing what i'm saying to you.

If Zidane has 100% for technique.
Carragher has 45% - 50%
Owen has 75%
Gerrard 72%
Scholes 85%
Beckham 90%

Myself 20%

the AVERAGE third division player would get about 35% the better ones getting 45%-50%.

The way i'd describe averages are...

Amatuer - 0-10%
Semi pro - 11%-30%
Third division - 31%-40%
second division - 41%-50%
first division - 51%-60%
Premiership - 61%-70%
International class - 71%-80%
Top class - 81%-90%
World class - 91%-100%

Premiership players like Carragher very rarely drop into first division class in every attribute. Obviously there are somebut not many. Below that theres hardly any at all.

P.S. i don't mean to sound patronising but the thing is i do actually know from experience what i'm on about here. The best player i played against was Danny Webber... look at the first divison scoring charts. No-one on the pitch could get near him, he scored 5 and when you did get near him he'd either outpace you, sell you a dummy, flatten you with strength, or touch the ball away from you. The touches he shown and the time he bought himself was unreal with some of the stuff he done. Thats a division one player now.

by **adayinthelife** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:28 am

stu_the_red wrote:P.S. i don't mean to sound patronising but the thing is i do actually know from experience what i'm on about here. The best player i played against was Danny Webber... look at the first divison scoring charts. No-one on the pitch could get near him, he scored 5 and when you did get near him he'd either outpace you, sell you a dummy, flatten you with strength, or touch the ball away from you. The touches he shown and the time he bought himself was unreal with some of the stuff he done. Thats a division one player now.

On that basis have a look at the number of strikers say playing for premiership teams right now who are not exactly blessed with great technique or quality.

Here are just a few:
Job,Nemeth,Pedersen,Davies,Bent,Dickov,Ameobi,Euell,Bartlett,Huckerby,Heskey,Morrison,Crou
ch.

Compare them to young strikers in the old 1st division who are scoring goals now like:
Ellington,Elliott,Webber,Bent,Ashton.

Some of the strikers in the prem lge right now I mentioned might be better allround players but I would prefer a youngster with talent and potential to become alot better than any of those I mentioned.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:49 am

On that basis have a look at the number of strikers say playing for premiership teams right now who are not exactly blessed with great technique or quality.

Here are just a few:
Job,Nemeth,Pedersen,Davies,Bent,Dickov,Ameobi,Euell,Bartlett,Huckerby,Heskey,Morrison,Crou

ch.

Compare them to young strikers in the old 1st division who are scoring goals now like:
Ellington,Elliott,Webber,Bent,Ashton.

Some of the strikers in the prem lge right now I mentioned might be better allround players but I would prefer a youngster with talent and potential to become alot better than any of those I mentioned.

Ok yuo've kind of lost me a bit here

For me, Nemeth, Pederson, Euell, Bartlett, Morrison and Crouch are first division standard players. Higher first division, maybe lower premier league.

Marcus Bent is a premiership quality player. Probably of similar class to Murphy, maybe not quite as good but very close in ability.

Heskey... well here's how i'd rate him (his ability) Not his form and what he shows. (so basically at his best).

Technique - 55%
Strength - 95%
Pace - 80%
Finishing - 70%
Work rate - 85%
Link up play - 70%
Hold up play - 81%

weakest point (defesive attributes) 35%-40%.

Webber:

Technique - 60%
Strength - 58%
Pace - 78%
Finishing - 56%
Work rate - 54%
Link up play - 50%
Hold up play - 42%

Owen:

Technique - 75%
Strength - 68%
Pace - 88%
Finishing - 95%
Work rate - 75%
Link up play - 80%
Hold up play - 70%

Baros:

Technique - 70%
Strength - 72%
Pace - 86%
Finishing - 70%
Work rate - 85%
Link up play - 52%
Hold up play - 70%

Zidane:

Technique - 100%
Strength - 80%
Pace - 70%
Finishing - 75%
Work rate - 62%
Link up play - 92%
Hold up play - 81%

Myself

Technique - 24%
Strength - 6%
Pace - 54% (bearing in mind i can do the 100 in about 12 seconds)
Finishing - 12%
Work rate - 14%
Link up play - 17%
Hold up play - 14%

Average third division player (similar mould to Owen only average 3rd division quality)

Technique - 24%
Strength - 17%
Pace - 68%
Finishing - 31%
Work rate - 27%
Link up play - 24%

Average sunday league player in the street

Technique - 8%
Strength - 6%
Pace - 8%
Finishing - 7%
Work rate - 9%
Link up play - 6%
Hold up play - 7%
Hold up play - 29%

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:56 am

Please don't ask me to expand on this as i've lost myself completely now.

by **A.B.** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:04 am

Stu are you using a computer game to back up your arguements?

by **adayinthelife** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:08 am

stu_the_red wrote:Owen:

Technique - 75%
Strength - 68%
Pace - 88%
Finishing - 95%
Work rate - 75%
Link up play - 80%
Hold up play - 70%

Baros:

Technique - 70%
Strength - 72%
Pace - 86%
Finishing - 70%
Work rate - 85%
Link up play - 52%
Hold up play - 70%

That is strange as according to your evaluation Owen and Baros are very similar except for finishing and link up play with Owen losing out on workrate which is about right.

But yet you constantly say Baros will never be good enough yet by your thinking if he improves his finishing and link up play due to his higher workrate he will be the better player

IMO Baros is technically just as good as Owen if not better.

That is some compliment you have paid Baros as he is not far off your beloved Owen.

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:35 am

I couldn't be bothered to trawl through the stats but on the Carragher point, Stu is right on the money. You don't need Championship Manager to tell you that if Carragher was playing for Doncaster, he could be your playmaker, striker, centre-half whatever and be absolutely stand out different class.
If any of you play local Saturday/Sunday morning football, have you ever come up against anyone who has been paid for playing football (these toss ers in the pub who tell you they've 'only played Doc Martins level' haven't got a clue, that is a GOOD standard), you will know what I mean. Imagine Hyppia playing against your pub side. You'd never ever score a goal and a corner to them would be like a penalty. However good the best header in your team is, you could put him and four others on Sami and you still wouldn't stop him heading every single corner that came accross at over head hieght into the box. Seriously on this one guys, Stu is RIGHT!
He's wrong about everything else though

by **Redrider** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:11 am

bigmick wrote:Hey Red, you must be on what we call a reverse wind-up right? Aldo was probably my favourite liverpool goalscorer, even over Rushie, Robbie and Owen. Not saying he was necessarily the best, just my favourite. What a player. Sorry Aldo While I'm on the case and just for the record, Ray Houghton was a fabulous player too.

Apologies Mick, I took your comments out of context.
But I guess I have inadvertantly made your point for you !!

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:18 am

No harm done mate

by **Redrider** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:06 am

The amazing thing about Aldridge, is that we only had two seasons of him.
But I guess that Rush and Aldridge playing together would not have been complimentary.
Great goalscorer though, wish his like were available today !!

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:40 am

That is strange as according to your evaluation Owen and Baros are very similar except for finishing and link up play with Owen losing out on workrate which is about right.

But yet you constantly say Baros will never be good enough yet by your thinking if he improves his finishing and link up play due to his higher workrate he will be the better player

IMO Baros is technically just as good as Owen if not better.

That is some compliment you have paid Baros as he is not far off your beloved Owen.

Theres more to the game than what i posted thats why. I couldnt' be bothered sitting there all night explaining. Also it was only a rough example.

Baros has NO world class attributes aswell which is something that will not change.

Bigmick, thank you for backing up my point. The thing about the corners hits the nail on the head.

by **taff** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:32 pm

Sorry but disagree and no amount of made up stats will convince me.

I hate this the game is so much faster cos it might be but its the same going down the divisions as well so there is no real time change in that situation.

If Carragher went to the 2nd division he might not necesasarily stand out especially in the centre back position due to the players he will be playing with. To say that premiership players will stand out is incorrect Im afraid its the reverse as in the lower league players will stand out if they moved up and thats the risk in buying them as will they learn to hold their own.

Exceptional players will always be exceptional players but the majority are in their respective leagues cos thats what they are used to to say JC would stand out is naive Stu to be honest he is a good defender but he would not make an attacker/midfielder in a division below and that is a ludicrous comment but he would be excellent defender

Liverpool FC Forum

I'm so predictable but... - I can't help it.

Who is online