Liverpool FC Forum

andy_g » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:06 pm wrote:there's nothing to dig up. the lazy cliche that lucas only passes sideways or backwards is trotted out regularly in match threads, in this thread, in the lucas thread and probably even in the fit girls thread.

RedAnt » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:17 pm wrote:
If you'd actually read what I was saying, and read what I'd said elsewhere, you'd realise the hypocrisy of the words 'lazy' and 'stereotype'.

Lucas is not a player to break up play, look up, and play killer long balls, or shrewd through balls that will unlock defences, or trigger counter attacks. Lucas plays safe (if we can call it that). Gerrard is the playmaker who can make those passes. They're different players and bring different things to the table. Lucas is ok by me. He works hard and he's loyal. His ability is limited. Why is it when someone says that, they end up with all this lazy stereotype talk? That's just lazy and stereotypical.

i did actually read what you were saying and i don't see the hypocrisy. i'm not arguing with your perceived roles of players and i'm not arguing with the idea that lucas is limited.

you write the words 'only passes sideways or backwards' as part of a description of lucas. i call this a lazy stereotype. i could have also said an unfounded assumption, or an incorrect analysis but i think lazy stereotype is better. its a stereotype because it appears in so many threads and is written by so many people. its lazy because anyone paying attention to a game he is playing in will see that a large number of his passes are forwards, long and short, and in many cases have even been attacking. the whole sideways and backwards thing has become received wisdom because its been repeated so often despte the fact that its plainly not true. there used to be a great feature on the guardian football site called 'chalkboards' where you could analyse the contributions of any player during any game and save an image of it. its perfect for putting the lazy sideways and backwards stereotype to bed but sadly its not available any more.

andy_g » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:41 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:17 pm wrote:
If you'd actually read what I was saying, and read what I'd said elsewhere, you'd realise the hypocrisy of the words 'lazy' and 'stereotype'.

Lucas is not a player to break up play, look up, and play killer long balls, or shrewd through balls that will unlock defences, or trigger counter attacks. Lucas plays safe (if we can call it that). Gerrard is the playmaker who can make those passes. They're different players and bring different things to the table. Lucas is ok by me. He works hard and he's loyal. His ability is limited. Why is it when someone says that, they end up with all this lazy stereotype talk? That's just lazy and stereotypical.

i did actually read what you were saying and i don't see the hypocrisy. i'm not arguing with your perceived roles of players and i'm not arguing with the idea that lucas is limited.

you write the words 'only passes sideways or backwards' as part of a description of lucas. i call this a lazy stereotype. i could have also said an unfounded assumption, or an incorrect analysis but i think lazy stereotype is better. its a stereotype because it appears in so many threads and is written by so many people. its lazy because anyone paying attention to a game he is playing in will see that a large number of his passes are forwards, long and short, and in many cases have even been attacking. the whole sideways and backwards thing has become received wisdom because its been repeated so often despte the fact that its plainly not true. there used to be a great feature on the guardian football site called 'chalkboards' where you could analyse the contributions of any player during any game and save an image of it. its perfect for putting the lazy sideways and backwards stereotype to bed but sadly its not available any more.

Well, I do know the game. I've watched it and played it all my life. When I say sideways and backwards passing, I mean the general theme of the player. It might be lazy for me to generalise in such short words, but I've spoken a lot about Lucas and didn't want to trigger off more of the old debate. It seems to have gone the opposite way.

My point is that we Gerrard is more a playmaker, Lucas is more a ball winner. On rare occasions there are midfielders who do it all. They can win the ball fiercely and play a defence splitting pass on the blink of an eye.

As things are, I believe we need both Lucas and Gerrard on the pitch. Gerrards brain is wired up to attack and it will take time for him to adapt and be able to run the game from his new position. With Lucas beside him, he may find more space to pick out passes, since he won't be closing down as much.

I like Lucas. Great attitude. Very loyal. Overcame a load of flack including being booed by some so-called fans. Has worked hard to improve and adapt to the Premiership. But unfortunately the fact remains he simply is nothing particularly special and has yet to get back to his best after his knee injury.I certainly don't share the view that it would be very easy to upgrade him.There are games when we need a Lucas but with the current quality of our attack they are becoming fewer and fewer.

Got to say Stu that I had a giggle at your £12m valuation for Johnson,Lucas and Skrtel combined  How is that broken down out of interest?

devaney » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:24 pm wrote:I like Lucas. Great attitude. Very loyal. Overcame a load of flack including being booed by some so-called fans. Has worked hard to improve and adapt to the Premiership. But unfortunately the fact remains he simply is nothing particularly special and has yet to get back to his best after his knee injury.I certainly don't share the view that it would be very easy to upgrade him.There are games when we need a Lucas but with the current quality of our attack they are becoming fewer and fewer.

Got to say Stu that I had a giggle at your £12m valuation for Johnson,Lucas and Skrtel combined  How is that broken down out of interest?

Did you like that?

I was thinking Johnson's contract expires in the summer, so f*ck him off...

Skrtel and Lucas £6,000,000 each... I'll obviously drive them to wherever they're going

With Skrtel reputation and the interest from City, we can easily get up to 15 million from him. Johnson is an English international so we can get as high as 10 million from him. Lucas (a player I would personally keep) would cost a bit less.

johnson will be entering his final year and there is no way we will get the colour of £10 mil  downing is an international also and he had about 3 years left but only fetched a paltry £5mil.
sticky situation it is as he could sit it out on the bench for a year and walk for nowt if we are not careful. if someone was offering £5mil we should take it and pursue that montoya lad.

The midfield is still a concern for me, although we've won our last 3 matches against Fulham, Swansea and Southampton I'd argue that the midfield didn't play particularly well in any of those games, in fact in the latter 2 they became perilously close to being completely over run.
The only time our midfield seems to play well is when we come up against a high profile side.
Can we win the league relying so heavily on our forwards or will this inability to control games against the lesser lights of the division eventually catch up with us and scupper our title hopes?
Midfield needs to seriously up its game IMO.

We need someone tough in there. I know Gerrard's hard but Hendo and Allen need bulking up. Hendo's been hitting the weights, and had a growth spurt, and if he had aggression to match, we'd see much better player. The problem is simple. We like to pass and move, quick and incisive. Oppositions counter it by making us go toe to toe. They pass the ball around with growing confidence because there's only Gerrard who is likely to cause pain if he gets a tackle in, and at the moment, oppositions can easily bypass him.

Flanagan looks good. I wonder how he'd play a midfield role. I like his attitude and aggression. Strong lad too. He flattened Shaw and could have cried himself after a heck of a landing, but after a glance to make sure he'd not killed the lad, he bombed back to help defend. I remember someone else bouncing off him too. The commentators were going on about how lucky he was...b*llocks. He went in and the other lad didn't. "See ya, sunshine"

Then again "you can't argue with results"