Liverpool FC Forum

damjan193 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:17 pm wrote:Can't understand how can people rate Allen more than Henderson. Henderson may not be our best player, but he's superior to Allen in all aspects IMO.

This will be the season that determines that I guess. Allen was bought on potential by Brendan and for me it was clear that the style of play that we were forced to use last year was not what was originally intended. Also perhaps the players around him were not what was best for his game. He's not the first and won't be the last player to be impacted positively or negatively by the skills/capabilities around him. Add in that a lot of young players tend to freeze when they jump from a smaller club to us and we have the situation that presented itself last season. Arguably Henderson was also subject to the same thing. Now that they have both had chance to settle this year will be interesting to see how they both progress.

Personally I think that we need to get away from the discussion of what a great player is or isn't and focus more about the team generically. You can look like a great goalkeeper or a cr@p one depending on your back 4. You can be an awesome centre back but look like you're all over the place if you backs decide to push forward all day long leaving you exposed etc etc etc. It's all about balance and the unit. For that reason I think that most on here are being a bit more positive about the ins and outgoings this year, Everyone had doubts about the unit last year, but a lot of what was cleared out was what we called for to go. No complaints on the most part and you have to give the mgt team the benefit of the doubt with what they've done. They'll live and die by the choices they've made no doubt.

I for one am dead excited about the new season and what it could bring. I hope to hell that we don't find ourselves disappointed in the next few months.

I believe Allen will be the one starting - the manager paid a lot for him and has a lot of faith in him - maybe he was hampered by his shoulder injury last year and we will see a much improved Allen - hope so. I personally would go for Henderson - he isn't the most creative or skillful but he is more dynamic and his energy levels are better, he does a lot of unseen good work and seems to have a but knack of popping up in right areas. He will also cover in other areas when the more creative players drift. It's still far from ideal because I think it's a very "light" midfield and could suffer against a more physical midfield.

Compare our three to the three that Spurs will play

Capoue , Paulinho and Dembele - that's a bloody tough midfield three and also Sandro to come in as well. Our midfield would struggle against theirs - that's why I think we need a more powerful player in there

wont happen though. IF willian comes in i suspect he will be the last

The kop will be singing 'I've got a feeling' on a weekly basis. That's something guaranteed.

if Willian signs the kop will be dusting off the big scouse wigs once again.

There does seem to have been some muddled up thinking from Rodgers on this one. On the one hand we were led to believe that the Armenian lad was our number one target earlier in the summer but he is a genuine number 10. And then for most of pre-season Joe Allen has played in the most advanced position of a three man midfield and done quite well up until the Celtic game when he looked lost. And then a few days later Rodgers says he is looking for a left sided player to release Coutinho to play in "his best position through the middle" so I'm not sure what the plan is.

Gerrard, Lucas and Allen (or Hendo) is a hard working/functional unit and it can work but Only IMO if the front 3 are genuine flair players ie. Sturridge, Suarez, Coutinho who will interchange, have good movement and make things happen. I actually have some confidence in that midfield if we line up like this because the lads ahead of them will create chances for themselves. The problem comes when you sub one of that dynamic front three for a less dynamic player ie. insert Henderson or until recently Downing. once you do this you are now relying of one of your functional midfield three to be more creative than they are able. That's when it all comes apart.

ideally we would go and get a player like Willian, shift Coutinho inside and drop Allen or Henderson for our home games and really go after the opposition at Anfield. However, away from home I would be very nervous about asking young Coutinho to provide help for a fairly immobile pairing of Gerrard and Lucas.

Aldo has been saying for ages we need a strong Dembele like midfielder.
Unless Henderson can turn into that type.

Willian, United are in for him apparently.

If u rate lucas and hendo, and an ageing gerrard a concern, then yes. I personally rate henderson

I'm not entirely convinced about Lucas. He's improved vastly, and is many people's automatic choice, including most managers he plays for. For me his all-round game isn't good enough and he picks up far too many yellows.  His heading isn't great and nor is his ability to retain possession after winning the ball.

I'd love to see another option to Lucas. Someone more imposing and vicious, mascherano-esque maybe. I don't rate Allen, and think he will be moved on once BR swallows his pride.

Hendo looks improved. I think we've decided to bulk him up and go for a more combative mold.

RedAnt » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:09 am wrote:I'm not entirely convinced about Lucas. He's improved vastly, and is many people's automatic choice, including most managers he plays for. For me his all-round game isn't good enough and he picks up far too many yellows.  His heading isn't great and nor is his ability to retain possession after winning the ball.

I'd love to see another option to Lucas. Someone more imposing and vicious, mascherano-esque maybe. I don't rate Allen, and think he will be moved on once BR swallows his pride.

Hendo looks improved. I think we've decided to bulk him up and go for a more combative mold.

I think Lucas has started the season really well. I know a few weren't keen on his performance yesterday and yes he did have a couple of hairy moments but I thought overall he and Gerrard did a good job defensively.

I've never rated Lucas as highly as most Reds do, and the plaudits he got under Rafa were over the top - he looks a better player now than he has ever done IMO.

He does concede silly fouls, that peeves me about him tbh. But thus far (2 games) I've been pretty impressed.

However, I would have liked cover or someone who could have either come in and challenged Lucas for the DM, to make our squad stronger if nothing else. We have a few CM but none in the defensive mould and yesterday IMO we could have done with another 'destroyer' in midfield to add legs to a leggy central midfield.

Kenny Kan » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:18 am wrote:

RedAnt » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:09 am wrote:I'm not entirely convinced about Lucas. He's improved vastly, and is many people's automatic choice, including most managers he plays for. For me his all-round game isn't good enough and he picks up far too many yellows.  His heading isn't great and nor is his ability to retain possession after winning the ball.

I'd love to see another option to Lucas. Someone more imposing and vicious, mascherano-esque maybe. I don't rate Allen, and think he will be moved on once BR swallows his pride.

Hendo looks improved. I think we've decided to bulk him up and go for a more combative mold.

I think Lucas has started the season really well. I know a few weren't keen on his performance yesterday and yes he did have a couple of hairy moments but I thought overall he and Gerrard did a good job defensively.

I've never rated Lucas as highly as most Reds do, and the plaudits he got under Rafa were over the top - he looks a better player now than he has ever done IMO.

He does concede silly fouls, that peeves me about him tbh. But thus far (2 games) I've been pretty impressed.

However, I would have liked cover or someone who could have either come in and challenged Lucas for the DM, to make our squad stronger if nothing else. We have a few CM but none in the defensive mould and yesterday IMO we could have done with another 'destroyer' in midfield to add legs to a leggy central midfield.

I agree. I think Lucas has turned into a very capable DF but not necessarily as brilliant as some make him out to be. He has become very authoritative and a key part of the team. He was always intimidated by Mascha and Gerrard  when he first joined the club. Mascha leaving was the making of him. He simply stepped up to the next level. He was initially so poor that the level of improvement came as a major surprise. If he had always played at that level he would be highly regarded but certainly not with quite the same level of enthusiasm. Having said that he is a great player and a real asset to the club. His determination to come back successfully from a potentially career ending injury shows exactly were his head is.

Kenny Kan » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:18 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:09 am wrote:I'm not entirely convinced about Lucas. He's improved vastly, and is many people's automatic choice, including most managers he plays for. For me his all-round game isn't good enough and he picks up far too many yellows.  His heading isn't great and nor is his ability to retain possession after winning the ball.

I'd love to see another option to Lucas. Someone more imposing and vicious, mascherano-esque maybe. I don't rate Allen, and think he will be moved on once BR swallows his pride.

Hendo looks improved. I think we've decided to bulk him up and go for a more combative mold.

I think Lucas has started the season really well. I know a few weren't keen on his performance yesterday and yes he did have a couple of hairy moments but I thought overall he and Gerrard did a good job defensively.

I've never rated Lucas as highly as most Reds do, and the plaudits he got under Rafa were over the top - he looks a better player now than he has ever done IMO.

He does concede silly fouls, that peeves me about him tbh. But thus far (2 games) I've been pretty impressed.

However, I would have liked cover or someone who could have either come in and challenged Lucas for the DM, to make our squad stronger if nothing else. We have a few CM but none in the defensive mould and yesterday IMO we could have done with another 'destroyer' in midfield to add legs to a leggy central midfield.

Lucas and Gerrard have been excellent so far. That said, I do agree that a backup option is needed. I'm not entirely convinced we need a destroyer type though. Dont get me wrong, having a player like that would be a good addition to the squad and would provide Lucas with a bit of competition (Flamini on a free wouldnt be a bad shout) but I think theres also a  case to be made for someone like Cabaye or McCarthy coming in and giving Gerrard that extra bit of freedom.

I'd certainly not move Lucas on. His ability though is limited, and most progress he's made is, as you guys say, more physcological (sp?). But I think it's like evolution.. he's adapted to our best DM but because there's no one to challenge him for it. It's a position I reckon we could improve on if we wanted to.

Flamini might not be a bad option but he's training with Arsenal at the mo. Alonso or Mascha might be available but BR might be dubious of bringing star players back. I forget the name of the young lad we have, but maybe we'll see more of him this year

lucas pre injury was as good as anyone in that screening position infront of the back 4 and yesterday for 60 minutes it looked like that old lucas was back, he was outstanding but then in the last half hour he just ran out of juice.
i dont know if rodgers system is asking too much of our CM`s or what but we cant keep conceding territory in the last 20 minutes of games and inviting pressure on ourselves.
maybe as the season goes on and the players get fitter (they`ve only played 2 competative games) we wont retreat to the edge of our box as much.
i dont have a problem with gerrard and lucas as CM`s, they are doing an excellent job it`s just that they cant seem to keep up the intensity they start games with  for 90 minutes, maybe the answer is to bring subs on in the last quarter of an hour to close games out. i actually think brendan is a bit slow in terms of making subs.