Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:46 pm

Theres a great parallel with Torres at the moment>
++

Chelsea have dismissed reports Fernando Torres will be sold in the January transfer window insisting the Spanish striker is central to their long-term plans. 14 Dec 2011

Reports this morning suggested Chelsea's £50 million signing would be offloaded in the new year following a disappointing 12 months during which he has scored just five goals in 35 appearances.

But a spokesman for the club today rubbished the suggestion saying: "The story is nonsense. Fernando Torres remains part of our long term plans."

Torres, who has struggled for a place in Chelsea's starting line-up since the arrival of Andre Villas-Boas, is likely to be granted more playing time come January when team-mate and fellow striker Didier Drogba will be on international duty at the Africa Cup of Nations.

The opportunity to lead the Chelsea attack will be further boosted by the imminent departure of Nicolas Anelka who earlier this week signed for Chinese side Shanghai Shenhua.

Torres' form since arriving at Stamford Bridge has been criticised relentlessly. Following his transfer he went 13 games without a goal and just as he looked to have broken his duck, he proceeded to go another nine matches without scoring.

And while he has not started for the club since their 5-3 defeat to Arsenal in October, Villas-Boas has publicly backed the striker insisting he was worth every penny of the £50m the club spent on him.

"In a career or a person's life, you have better moments and worse moments," the Portuguese manager said last month. "At the moment, Fernando's best moments in terms of goalscoring were the Liverpool days. That does not mean those days won't arrive in this club, and that does not mean that, at the moment, he is not performing for the team, because he is.

"Isolate the last four months with the goals he's scored [four in seven games in all competitions] and it isn't bad. A striker is not just there to put the ball in the back of the net. He's there to perform and create."

by **Kerry07** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:50 pm

Torres is a terrible parallel. Torres is a proven world class player who isnt doing it and they are waiting for him to "come good" (do it again). Andy Carroll is a proven average joe who isnt doing it (and has never done it).

When the 50 million fee for Torres was agreed the entire world thought Chelsea were buying themselves the real deal... when we forked out 35 million for Andy Carroll the entire world (bar some mugs at our club) were in disbelief, gutted almost (look at the opening page). I recall saying at the time the feeling was worse than losing a game.. because the effects were long lasting. Not just the 35million fee (and 22.5million wages) its what we could have done with that 57 million expenditure. Its the equivalent of two full Champions League campaigns (and everyone goes on about how important a CL run is for the club's coffers)..that outlay on Carroll was enough to afford one superstar signing that changes the fortunes of a club.

by **Thommo's perm** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:03 pm

devaney wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Are you judging Carroll on his performances with us or before as well ?

Both. He is playing at a vastly different level which requires a higher degree of footballing intelligence which frankly I do not believe he possesses. Championship and mid to low level Stoke style premiership football is Carroll's level. He does not have the speed, ability or intelligence to meet our standards.

"GROW UP THOMMO - YOU SOUND LIKE A WHINGING TWELVE YEAR OLD!"

:laugh:

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:16 pm

Kerry07 wrote:Torres is a terrible parallel. Torres is a proven world class player who isnt doing it and they are waiting for him to "come good" (do it again). Andy Carroll is a proven average joe who isnt doing it (and has never done it).

When the 50 million fee for Torres was agreed the entire world thought Chelsea were buying themselves the real deal... when we forked out 35 million for Andy Carroll the entire world (bar some mugs at our club) were in disbelief, gutted almost (look at the opening page). I recall saying at the time the feeling was worse than losing a game.. because the effects were long lasting. Not just the 35million fee (and 22.5million wages) its what we could have done with that 57 million expenditure. Its the equivalent of two full Champions League campaigns (and everyone goes on about how important a CL run is for the club's coffers)..that outlay on Carroll was enough to afford one superstar signing that changes the fortunes of a club.

Since Torres left Liverpool he has played 35 games for Chelsea ( hasn't been injured ) and scored 5 goals

Carroll was out injured for 3 months and has played 22 games and has scored 5 games .

In the last 18 months Carroll has outscored Torres - 14 goals for Torres - 18 goals for Carroll .

by **Greavesie** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:34 pm

I remember when Carroll was at Newcastle and doing really well. BigMick started a thread about him saying players like him are exactly the type we should be looking at - young, promising and English. Now where's that thread, would certainly be interesting to read it back?

EDIT - my bad, it was dundreamin that started the thread

by **Thommo's perm** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:49 pm

Its not his ability or fitness thats missing. He needs to sort his head out
He still hasnt come to terms with his fee and moving to the best club in the world.
KK is working on his mind as well as his body

by **Reg** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:13 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:Torres is a terrible parallel. Torres is a proven world class player who isnt doing it and they are waiting for him to "come good" (do it again). Andy Carroll is a proven average joe who isnt doing it (and has never done it).

When the 50 million fee for Torres was agreed the entire world thought Chelsea were buying themselves the real deal... when we forked out 35 million for Andy Carroll the entire world (bar some mugs at our club) were in disbelief, gutted almost (look at the opening page). I recall saying at the time the feeling was worse than losing a game.. because the effects were long lasting. Not just the 35million fee (and 22.5million wages) its what we could have done with that 57 million expenditure. Its the equivalent of two full Champions League campaigns (and everyone goes on about how important a CL run is for the club's coffers)..that outlay on Carroll was enough to afford one superstar signing that changes the fortunes of a club.

Since Torres left Liverpool he has played 35 games for Chelsea ( hasn't been injured ) and scored 5 goals

Carroll was out injured for 3 months and has played 22 games and has scored 5 games .

In the last 18 months Carroll has outscored Torres - 14 goals for Torres - 18 goals for Carroll .

I tend to see things differently, its not just about goals. The parallel I referred to was spending 50 million on a player that hasn't shown up yet and the dilemma of whether to stand by him or get rid. The fact the Telegraph wrote the article shows theres an issue and if Chelsea have a problem, then so do Liverpool.

by **Kerry07** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:46 am

Reg wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:Torres is a terrible parallel. Torres is a proven world class player who isnt doing it and they are waiting for him to "come good" (do it again). Andy Carroll is a proven average joe who isnt doing it (and has never done it).

When the 50 million fee for Torres was agreed the entire world thought Chelsea were buying themselves the real deal... when we forked out 35 million for Andy Carroll the entire world (bar some mugs at our club) were in disbelief, gutted almost (look at the opening page). I recall saying at the time the feeling was worse than losing a game.. because the effects were long lasting. Not just the 35million fee (and 22.5million wages) its what we could have done with that 57 million expenditure. Its the equivalent of two full Champions League campaigns (and everyone goes on about how important a CL run is for the club's coffers)..that outlay on Carroll was enough to afford one superstar signing that changes the fortunes of a club.

Since Torres left Liverpool he has played 35 games for Chelsea ( hasn't been injured ) and scored 5 goals

Carroll was out injured for 3 months and has played 22 games and has scored 5 games .

In the last 18 months Carroll has outscored Torres - 14 goals for Torres - 18 goals for Carroll .

I tend to see things differently, its not just about goals. The parallel I referred to was spending 50 million on a player that hasn't shown up yet and the dilemma of whether to stand by him or get rid. The fact the Telegraph wrote the article shows theres an issue and if Chelsea have a problem, then so do Liverpool.

Apologies.. i read your parallel wrong.

The dilemma Chelsea face is whether to stick with Torres and hope he will regain the world class form he showed previously (personally i dont think he will..prior injuries and his apparent apathy being the reasons).. the situation we face is whether to stick with Carroll and hope he shows something that he has never shown in his career. In our case those who think this are asking for mission impossible... Chelsea meanwhile are asking for a return to form.

Although i have mentioned the fee (most do).. the biggest gripe is the lack of talent, and also his awful contrast in style. Concern within the club over this signing arose as early as May (Graham Beecroft). Then in the summer we had the owner coming out with the guff "it was Torres money anyway..and we got an extra 15 million".. it was not Torres money.. it became the clubs just like any other form of income. Now there is the prickly reception from Kenny when his name is mentioned in press conferences, and now hes routinely rooted to the bench. He's been outed by a team-mate in an interview as being the worst trainer at the club. Then there is the startling contrast between our performances when he plays and when he doesnt. There aint a shred of encouragement in the deal...but a big fat 57 million pound hole in our coffers.

There is no question that Torres being out of form has saved Carroll from being massacred in the media (he's ignored more than anything). He was under the radar when we bought him... was catapulted into the spotlight from out of nowhere when he signed... and has gradually slipped back to being an after thought. Torres is a much bigger story (not so much because of the fee as both are astronomical) but because he was at the top of the tree as a striker and has fallen so far.. whereas Carroll has been at the same sub-average level. There was massive expectation with Torres and very little with Carroll. I feel sorry for the lad (not the 80k hes on) in terms of its not his fault we went nuts on the last day of the window..its not his fault hes been taken from a direct hoofball team that suited his limited game to a team that plays in a manner that demands 10 times more. I look at him and think Stoke.. there is no more suitable club (besides the one he left) for the big fella.

by **Reg** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:35 am

Good post mate.

The biggest problem with footballers is they're fickle. I watched LFC.tv the other night and they had a feature on SG in the Goalscorers series. Y'know boring as h'ell, 30 yard drives from every angle. Yawn... But when they progressed through the years suddenly FT featured in the videos and the expressions of joy between FT and the rest of the team was overpowering. SG/FT and others were so HAPPY playing together, scoring goals, winning games, it was remarkable to see the body language.

FT's body language today is a nothing short of a disaster. Head down, shoulders hunched, face drawn, looking down. Clearly the Chelsea egos haven't accepted him (Drogba, FF and Terry etc..) so its become a job. There is none of the JOY that FT felt at LFC, the complete pleasure of achievement, of the adulation of the fans and the massive feel good factor. So bottom line FT will NOT ever come good at Chelsea. Forget it, its over.

Carroll has never played at this level nor found himself the centre of attention, he's still trying to find the skill, confidence and goal awareness to get there. The fans giving him a hard time works against him. KK has given him the same welcome and care that Rafa gave Torres when he arrived but FT had already proved himself at Athletico, AC had only shown glimmers of promise. ie he hadn't and still hasn't made the breakthrough to top level. AC needs to take Rushie's advice - get selfish, toughen up. Rooney and Carroll are no different but one has the determination and aggression to dominate and score and the other is still a fairy.

Forget the 35 million, its spent. The question now is does Steve Clarke, KK and Rushie who is working with the strikers see a carthorse or a lad who can muscle his way to the top? This poor trainer I hope was in the past and isn't current. If current then he's a bf and will be shortly on his way. There's no point holding onto a 35 million asset that isnt performing and costing us a small fortune in wages. Just as we have to get rid of Joe Cole to save money, if any other player isn't producing the goods they have to go so we can focus on reinforcing the first team. And right now that means goal scorers.

by **ethanr** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:55 am

I just ignore this thread at this point

82 pages, with 2 different opinions repeated over and over and over again... Getting slightly old.

by **devaney** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:28 am

[quote="Thommo's perm"][/quote]
Keep it real Thommo - just to remind you this is your original post: KK bought him and paid way over the top for him. Panic buy or not, hes wasted Fenways money and our time
If Carroll is not even a footballer in the making then KK is not a manager, whatever he thinks.
It is the fu'ck up of all fu'ck ups
Thanks a million Daglish- thirty Fu*king five of them

AS I SAID YOU SAID SOUND LIKE A WHINGING TWELVE YEAR OLD !!

by **The Good Yank** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:02 am

devaney wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:

Keep it real Thommo - just to remind you this is your original post: KK bought him and paid way over the top for him. Panic buy or not, hes wasted Fenways money and our time
If Carroll is not even a footballer in the making then KK is not a manager, whatever he thinks.
It is the fu'ck up of all fu'ck ups
Thanks a million Daglish- thirty Fu*king five of them

AS I SAID YOU SAID SOUND LIKE A WHINGING TWELVE YEAR OLD !!

I think if you look back at Thommo's posts in this thread you'll reallize that his post fell into the Sar Chasm.

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:44 pm

The Good Yank wrote:
devaney wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:

Keep it real Thommo - just to remind you this is your original post: KK bought him and paid way over the top for him. Panic buy or not, hes wasted Fenways money and our time
If Carroll is not even a footballer in the making then KK is not a manager, whatever he thinks.
It is the fu'ck up of all fu'ck ups
Thanks a million Daglish- thirty Fu*king five of them

AS I SAID YOU SAID SOUND LIKE A WHINGING TWELVE YEAR OLD !!

I think if you look back at Thommo's posts in this thread you'll reallize that his post fell into the Sar Chasm.

Devaney is also missing the irony of his post...

by **dundreamin** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:56 pm

OK, I thought tut KK would get the best out of Carroll. I put my hand up, for as to date I was WRONG! beast me if you want to

by **Kerry07** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:42 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8959702/Liverpool-captain-Steven-Gerrard-confident-of-playing-a-role-in-busy-festive-period-after-

break-in-Abu-Dhabi.html

The responsibility on Carroll to dispel the theory his club is waiting for a politically expedient time to cut their losses on their £35 million investment grows by the week. There are those on Merseyside who believe it is only a matter of time before Newcastle are sounded out and asked how much they would be willing to pay to take him back to St James’ Park.

If, as expected, Liverpool try to reinforce their strike force in January it will only increase the pressure on Carroll to prove he is capable of igniting his Anfield career. He has yet to play more than three consecutive games for the club.

Dalglish could not have been more supportive of Carroll. Throughout the striker’s inauspicious year at Anfield, the only lack of patience Dalglish has displayed regarding the striker has been aimed at those continuing to ask questions about his contribution.

“We’re not here to discuss Andy,” Dalglish said on Thursday, but he agreed those who have been out of the side will be expected to do their duty in the coming week.

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Tick tock tick tock. The question is how much would we get for him? Personally i think we should hold him (on the bench) until the summer, then loan (Stoke being the best option as they play direct that suits the limited big fella).. and hopefully get his value up near the 15 million mark. Right now i cant see anyone paying that for him.

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