Liverpool FC Forum

[Jimmy the Weasel]

Quick observation - something I only noticed recently at the Man City game.

Towards the end of the warm up, when everyone was jogging off, Alonso turned with a couple of balls and from the half-way line he had one or two shots on goal.

Now I know he's obviously done this before in games, but I presumed it was to do with his vision in the moment - I never really thought it was something he actively practised.

Has anyone noticed him doing this before other matches??

[Sabre]

Unfortunately I can't see the warming ups. In his former club he tried it in the training sessions, and had competitions with former Spanish international De Pedro.

In that art De Pedro was better, he was able to make basketball points with the football ball (and kicking the ball).

More than the vision, I think it's useful for "getting the measure" of the strenght you give to the ball.

[account deleted by request]

I do think that he sold sissoko because he thought it was a right choice (he knew he wasn't better than mascherano) and mascherano was doing really well, so it restricted sissoko from playing.

I do think, that maybe Rafa thought he would want another class midfielder that would offer more consistancy, which Alonso in the past two seasons hasn't showed because of his injuries or other problems, and Barry fit that bill, he was consistant and playing his best football with Aston Villa, plus he is a class player. However, with Alonso showing his good form now, maybe it it wil re-evaluate Benitez's plan, because Xabi is showing some consistancy he showed in his first 2 seasons. 

Barry creates a lot actually, he is very underated on here by some people, but I think that boat has probably already sailed. Few rumours going around that we are after Gourcuff off Milan (Another Zidane)who may bring in the creativity we need in the final third.

Decent player but no where near Zidane's class. Daft comparrison.

Not going to improve us either and wouldn't bring the balance we need.

Never seen him mate, or if I have he certainly didn't catch my eye. I just thought it was encouraging to see Rafa appears to be on the lookout for someone who is creative in the final third.

Problem is if they are any good they usually cost a fortune.

Still he is young....... plenty of time for him to IMPROVE 

[Fo Dne]

Quick observation - something I only noticed recently at the Man City game.

Towards the end of the warm up, when everyone was jogging off, Alonso turned with a couple of balls and from the half-way line he had one or two shots on goal.

Now I know he's obviously done this before in games, but I presumed it was to do with his vision in the moment - I never really thought it was something he actively practised.

Has anyone noticed him doing this before other matches??

Yeah, he does it alot. He stays behind after training occassionally and pings balls into the goal from his own half. It is spur of the moment vision, he doesn't try it often, but he also practices the skill aswell to prevent against rust. Its hard enough to do on a training pitch under no pressure with no goalie, let alone in a game.

Its not a bad skill to have though.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

Yeah, he does it alot. He stays behind after training occassionally and pings balls into the goal from his own half. It is spur of the moment vision, he doesn't try it often, but he also practices the skill aswell to prevent against rust. Its hard enough to do on a training pitch under no pressure with no goalie, let alone in a game.

Its not a bad skill to have though.

It's an incredible thing to practice, given the number of times he's likely to call upon it.

[GYBS]

Yeh thats what Im saying Sabre, I don't think Alonso will stay because Rafa still wants to sell him for the right price.

GYBS, I wouldn't mind Xavi, but its unrealistic, he would be perfect with Gerrard.

Oh definatly dont think we would get him . Dont think pirlo would be much use cause he needs time and space and thats something you dont see much of in prem

Well, the player of this topic isn't fast, he's slow. But he has proven he can do well enough to be decent. I don't think I'm overpraising him if I say that.

Just a thought. I admire English football. As a fan, I enjoy more watching a premiership game, than a La Liga game.

I admire it more a number of reasons, and not only passion. These days very good football is being played in England, it's the best league in the world right now, as you could see in the CL last season.

But, admitting all that happily, isn't it a dogma, or a cliche talking about the pace and the rythm?

I mean, meanwhile we talk about the pace and the rythm of the premiership GBYS, we see more and more foreigners adapting to it. Why? Because there's money in England. And the best players are going there or to Spain if they hate cold. And good players, I mean the really good ones, adapt no matter if they're pacy or not.

It's true that the Italians hadn't shown a lot of things in England until now. But what about the Spanish mate? what did the Spanish show in England until a FEW years ago? Next to nothing. Ferrer, Ivan Campo... bah, decent players.

But when the good ones come, they adapt well. I wouldn't write off Pirlo because he's not the paciest player in the world.

Im not talking about pirlos pace im talking about time on the ball - pirlo is great when he has time and is protected but in the prem he wont have time on the ball to do his best stuff

[Fo Dne]

Yeah, he does it alot. He stays behind after training occassionally and pings balls into the goal from his own half. It is spur of the moment vision, he doesn't try it often, but he also practices the skill aswell to prevent against rust. Its hard enough to do on a training pitch under no pressure with no goalie, let alone in a game.

Its not a bad skill to have though.

It's an incredible thing to practice, given the number of times he's likely to call upon it.

Well he's probably had 7 or 8 shots in his time here, I can remember two goals, I'm sure he's scored three though?

Newcastle, Luton and...

I remember him shooting right and left footed against Sunderland, Man Utd and Norwich. Theres probably been more.

[bigmick]

If I might be permitted, I'd like to come back on my concept of "dogma" which was mentioned on another thread (now closed) and in which I probably didn't explain myself regarding Alonso too well.

After the thread was closed, Lando not unreasonably took the view that as I had mentioned him a couple of times in the topic starter, there were was a point or two he'd like to raise with me. This he did via PM very well but I do think it was a slight shame that we weren't able to have our (very reasonable I might add) discussion out in the open but there it is. I explained to Lando that what constituted dogma on the thread for me, was the dispute which still raged on about whether or not Xabi's form had dipped.

Now, so clearly is he playing better this season than the last two, and by such a distance (I actually think he is close to being at his very best at the moment) that I cannot for the life of see why anybody would dispute the obvious. The only concieveable reason that any poster would dispute that he is now playing better, is it seems to me because they disputed the fact previously.

Anyway, once we accept that, then the door opens within the debate to a whole new garden. We begin to discuss compatibility, where Gerrard should play, whether a move for barry is still a good move (it isn't in my opinion) etc etc. If we can also discuss Kuyt without some of the silliness which has gone on over there, you get to the point where you can discuss football again.

That's where dogma spoils the forum. I bring it up because I noted that Sabes mentioned it previously in the thread. I didn't explain it terribly well the first time, I hope this time it is clearer.

[Sabre]

Clarified.

Now, so clearly is he playing better this season than the last two, and by such a distance (I actually think he is close to being at his very best at the moment) that I cannot for the life of see why anybody would dispute the obvious. The only concieveable reason that any poster would dispute that he is now playing better, is it seems to me because they disputed the fact previously.

Let's accept, for the sake of not getting stuck in a point of discussion, that such an improvement is so huge.

Question

What are the reasons of it in your opinion

a) The player wasn't with the right attitude until he saw the danger of being sold

b) His environment in the team. The players that surround him, i.e, Riera's and Keane's impact in the team.

c) Rafa playing him regularly with little rotation.

d) Certainly Alonso had problems with his injuries, and besides, he's slow to come back from injuries and be on 100% again


For me it's b) and d) mainly.

[JoeTerp]

nvrmnd 

[Sabre]

Also, one of Alonso's big problems last season was that he could be easily nullified by a proper pressing.

It seemed to *many* posters back then that could be hardly helped because it was inherent to Alonso's lack of pace. Except Bigmick, who always thought it was up to Alonso making better decissions and getting the ball in other places of the pitch, and a few others who disagreed.

So

Axiom: His improvement has been huge and is close to his best game then.   It's an axiom, because it's so evident that doesn't need to be proved.

Questions: How did he bridge then that problem? Is he moving more intelligently to get the ball from defence? Is it perhaps that he's been given a chance to play with Gerrard regularly and they were compatible after all? Is it that Riera and Keane offer him better lines of passes than Crouch or Babel?

I'm a bit slow to see some universal truths, so since it's all that evident, I guess that answering all those questions should be straightforward for anyone.

[bigmick]

What are the reasons of it in your opinion

a) The player wasn't with the right attitude until he saw the danger of being sold

b) His environment in the team. The players that surround him, i.e, Riera's and Keane's impact in the team.

c) Rafa playing him regularly with little rotation.

d) Certainly Alonso had problems with his injuries, and besides, he's slow to come back from injuries and be on 100% again


For me it's b) and d) mainly.

I think the main reason is he is playing out of the pocket more, and in so doing making himself much harder to play against. It's nowhere near as easy to detail a player to pick him up when he picks the ball up in a variety of areas, as it was when he constantly played just in front of the back four. When he was there, as I've said many times the opposition strikers mostly, and partly their most advanced midfielders could squeeze him in.

Now while all that was happening, Xabi didn't really give the ball away too much as he's too good a player for that. He still got his tackles in, he still won headers and he still had excellent positional sense. All in all, he did OK. His work wasn't so much "unseen" and "unappreciated" as it was fairly mundane by his high standards. There are quite a few players around who could do a similar job to a similar level, rarely passing the ball beyond twenty yards, rarely passing the ball forwards, rarely scoring a goal or threatening to do so, rarely causing a goal to be scored etc etc but keeping posession, keeping it tidy etc.

Contrast that with this season and he's expanded the diameter of the circle in which he revieves the ball from thirty yards upto seventy. Why has he done that? well I think there's a couple of reasons, one or two of which you touch on in your post.

a) I don't think it's attitude with Alonso as that's always excellent. There may though have been a realisation finally of what the manager was actually asking him to do. It's one thing getting a blackboard out and telling a player that you want him to do more of this and less of that, but when you make it clear you are porepared to sell him and replace him with Barry, it can make it clearer. I've no doubt Alonso will have had a look at the Villa man and thought to himself "well feck me I can do that", which of course he can and is doing.

b) Not sure about the team thing in the players you've mentioned. Unquestionably the addition of Riera will have helped him as he's got a genuine left midfielder to hit now. Equally, from an attacking sense the fact that Kuyt plays every game won't help him overly (and please anybody who wants to dispute that do it in the Kuyt thread rather than infecting this one with your nonsense). He hit gerrard with unerring reguarlarity when he was out there, but Kuyt is neither so pacy, mobile, intuitive nor skillful to actually control it once it gets there. The main thing which'll no doubt have helped him is Gerrards somewhat more circumspect tendencies so far this season. Xabi will feel more confident to express himself more if he feels that the captain hasn't gone AWOL, and when he sits in Gerrard is blessed with the afterburners to recover pretty much any mishaps.

c) Playing regularly helps all players.

d) Injuries, being fully fit obviously is a must, particularly for a player who isn't naturally the most athletic. Confidence though is the thing, he looks ot me like he feels like a good player again. At his best there are few better and he's almost there.

[Sabre]

Good post. I agree parts of it (most of it in fact), but that's irrelevant. You answered too the question I rised in my second question post.

I'd appreciate more member's opinions, including the one of that American that says nevermind and laughs.

Now while all that was happening, Xabi didn't really give the ball away too much as he's too good a player for that. He still got his tackles in, he still won headers and he still had excellent positional sense. All in all, he did OK. His work wasn't so much "unseen" and "unappreciated" as it was fairly mundane by his high standards.

This is funny because we agree. The problem seems to be that when I read he was "poor" and even somebody we could perfectly sell with no problems, I interpreted a much worse idea than the one you have described.

People mentioned astray passes (I knew astray word by reading it often), and balls given away, as in, píss poor.

[bigmick]

Axiom: His improvement has been huge and is close to his best game then.   It's an axiom, because it's so evident that doesn't need to be proved.

Sabes, leaving aside the slightly sarcastic tones for just a second, do you accept that Alonso is playing better now than he has for quite some time?

also, leaving aside the reasons for it if after all it is so (because we are all just guessing when it comes down to it) in percentage terms, how much is his current form a step up in your view?

My opinion FWIW is that he has definately improved a distance. Now whether it is because of the reasons we've just touched on, whether it's because he has had a surge of confidence as a result of being part of a team which won a major International Championship, whether the fitness from playing in those games is standing him in good stead I don't know.

I am certain though there has been a large improvement, and people like yourself and Lando who contantly stuck up for him and didn't want him sold have in many ways been vindicated.

If we assume that he is currently playing to something like 95% of his potential (and I do assume/guess that), then I would say we have seen him hovering at around 70-75% over the last two seasons. That is round about how far I think he's stepped up.

[Sabre]

It was a bit sarcastic, but no offence meant eh?

He has improved, but part of that improvement is thanks to his team mates. A player's form isn't independent of the context of how solid is a team. A significant part of the improvement is thanks to his team mates.

And he has improved from the "mundane" , or "OK", status, not from a very poor display. Not everybody had your mild opinion and criticism Mick, when assessing Alonso's game.

I admit that Alonso is slow to come back from injuries, I agree what you say about his athleticism, and I agree that because of that, he was below his average last season, but still being OK or decent in his tasks, not poor.

I admit that Alonso seems more comfortable now, but I think parts of it is due to the context of the team, the team is helping.


P.S. I don't like the percentages thingy, but I will say

that now he's playing to the 85% of his potential, the 100% would be if he was scoring from range, making even more Hollywood passes, and taking better his corners, which he hasn't this season .

Last season he was 65%, the previous 72% and the first seasons, around 75%. He never was poor, he never was that much worse than in the first seasons, while I admit last season was his worst season as a red.

It's my opinion that Alonso is a more mature and better player than when he came, I see a better and tougher player.

It's also my opinion that those variables of percentages are not only up to him, but also the context of the team and things like injuries. I think in the first season he was a worse player than he is now. But he was the new guy and he brought good stuff so big praises were given. Even rotation and having some games in a row might have to do something in it. :P

It's my opinion aswell that Alonso's 65% is better than many midfielders of the premiership. Worse than his best potential yes, cráp, never.

Last season I wasn't saying ALonso was great and MOM, just defending from excessive criticism ( excessive IMO). That 65% happened at the same time with an excellent Mascherano display, and it's natural that comparisons and personal tastes were stablished. But I always thought he was a quality player we shouldn't get rid of.