Liverpool FC Forum

[flamingpoe]

yes i know this may mean we aint gettin mr over rated english left mid, but rafa has always made most of his best signings from spain so we may be lookin at some other left sided mid, if he says the moneys there, and with the sell of one more there will be even more, it also states spectacular deal so i hope fingers crossed he is buying the left sided mid that i think he may go for!, that he was going to go for at the same time as villa, but seeing as villa is going nowhere for atleast a few years he may go for silva, seeing as silva hasn't signed a new contract and has been linked with big money moves and benitez always makes his moves late, we probs have always noticed that, hell we wudn't be moaning so much otherwise, and we always seem to be happy at the end of the transfer window, also he said he wanted three 20mil players, robbie keane, gareth barry and ??

[Simari]

"Xabi has had a dead leg so we had to protect him," said Benitez.

"At the end of the game Plessis was injured too so we had to change. We knew Xabi was only maybe 80% of his ability so it was to protect him.

"Xabi is our player and he is playing well. If he continues to play well I will be really pleased. But it doesn't matter if you have one good player and you need another one, you have to keep the balance of the team."

Elaborating on the possibility of letting the European Championship winner go, Benitez added: "I explained to him why I needed money for signing other players.

"He can understand if you have (Javier) Mascherano, Lucas, Steven Gerrard and then Plessis, you have four other midfielders and maybe you can sell one player."

Redman, this was the quote I was refering to.

Not once did Rafa mention in his interview after the match, those comments re: Xabi starting with the sentence "Elaborating on the possibility...".

Totally out of context, and I don't remember Rafa EVER saying that to the press throughout this summer.

Complete and utter fabrication. Not even going to bother with the rest of it, but all it is a series of journalistic clips from different times over the entire pre-season - re-worded by some dumbass journalist for release on August 17th ....

[7_Kewell]

Xabi is playing great right now, before I was unsure on the transfer but now it is looking like a worse deal then before.  I really hope Rafa actually BELIEVES we NEED Barry instead of just trying to sign him for his ego.

maybe this whole saga is the kick up the ar$s Alonso needed?

[Sean]

Its hard to believe that when Gerrard was thinking of joining in Chelsea in summers of 2004 and 2005, the indications at the time were that Rafa was not overly concerned as he planned to build his midfield around Alonso.

[Toffeehater]

I have to agree with 7_ kewell , alonso has played better even since he knows that he position at the club might be threatened and he could be forced to play second fiddle to a replacement. But i also have to agree with bad bob , alonso has handled this like a model pro , could have thought of many players who would have fought back or demanded a transfer request . The man's got class

[Sabre]

In my view Rafa hasn't been as a "bad guy" as Bad Bob has  described. That is, the way he puts it does seem very harsh, but when I focus on Rafa's words and Alonso's words I don't share that much the "ill treatment" opinion. Perhaps it's not the most human or tap in the back approach, but nothing special, we also know that Gerrard sometimes missed a more "warm" coach.

The only thing that Rafa has made clear is that Alonso is not irreplaceable, and that's an ok opinion. He also has said he's a great player. As much as I've defended Alonso, I don't see that clear he's unwanted by Rafa.

On Alonso's performances I also disagree for instance Toffeehater's opinion. IMHO he's only been slightly better than normal games of last season, it's just that we're forgiving more things now we don't take for sure he'll be here. That is, I also have seen strayed passes from him, but those have been forgiven in the match comments.

At least we all seem to agree he's quality. Unfortunately we have to see that because Mascherano isn't here and we had to use a youngster instead of that quality.

[Simari]

Sabre - I will disagree with you on the bit about being slightly better in his 2nd half performance compared to last year.

Most of last season, he sat back in our half and did not pass forward much. In that one half against sunderland, he was constantly ACCURATELY passing forward and moving the ball upfield as opposed to stagnating in midfield. We can forgive a few stray passes if it is countered by a large number of accurate passes moving upfield as he did against Sunderland.

No one is forgiving of him yet, he needs to demonstrate this week in week out. He is more than capable of doing it. If he doesn't, then he should move on. He has quality and he needs to demonstrate it - otherwise he needs to realise that the door is always there for him.

Last season, he was the one player than moaned the most at referees from our squad. If he stops that and continues to produce, we will be glad to have him. If he reverts to his performances from last season, I'm sure a number of us (including me), would rather see him out the door.

[Number 9]

In my view Rafa hasn't been as a "bad guy" as Bad Bob has  described. That is, the way he puts it does seem very harsh, but when I focus on Rafa's words and Alonso's words I don't share that much the "ill treatment" opinion. Perhaps it's not the most human or tap in the back approach, but nothing special, we also know that Gerrard sometimes missed a more "warm" coach.

The only thing that Rafa has made clear is that Alonso is not irreplaceable, and that's an ok opinion. He also has said he's a great player. As much as I've defended Alonso, I don't see that clear he's unwanted by Rafa.

On Alonso's performances I also disagree for instance Toffeehater's opinion. IMHO he's only been slightly better than normal games of last season, it's just that we're forgiving more things now we don't take for sure he'll be here. That is, I also have seen strayed passes from him, but those have been forgiven in the match comments.

At least we all seem to agree he's quality. Unfortunately we have to see that because Mascherano isn't here and we had to use a youngster instead of that quality.

I agree Sabre!rafa new he had to sell to buy basically and although eveyone at LFC holds Xabi in high esteem we all know there is no place for sentiment in football.
Mr nice guy never wins nothing and never did.
TBH i cant see the barry signing happening now so it looks like an enormous season for Alonso.
Whether he gets downbeat and his form suffers or whether he comes out fighting and recaptures the  form we all know he is capable of will tell everyone a hell of a lot about the man he is.
If he stays i think the player he is will give 100% in every game and hopefully be a significant player for us this season.there is no reason if he has an excellent season and plays well that he can change rafas mind and prove too good to let go regardless of our financial situation come january or season end.

The ball is in Alonsos court now,he needs to prove himself worthy of the shirt!Maybe come the end of the season we will have seen the best of him and this transfer debacle will have been the boot in the hole he needed.......I hope so!

[Sabre]

I also agree it's a season for Alonso to give more. Because he's in an age to do so, and because he has been in the club long enough to do so, and because he can improve the form of last season.

However, I'll cross post a post of S@int to follow the discussion in the proper place.

Group: LFC Premium Members
Posts: 11925
Joined: April 2006  Posted: Aug. 19 2008,19:50 




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I didn't realise it was just to measure how good or otherwise players passing was! but more to see how many goals occurred as a direct result of their contribution. As with goals scored it doesn't tell the whole story, but over a period of time will give some insight into where we need to improve and where we are doing well.

If you want to see how many passes Alonso makes without creating anything
, just check the last couple of seasons assists, against other seasons when he has played better for example.

He made one assist last season, made one assist the season before, yet made 5 assists the season before that (curiously the last season in which most believe he played well) This season he has already made one assist and was also almost unanimously praised for his performance.

So while assists dont necessarily tell the whole story, sometimes they can add to what we already know or believe.

From the highlighted text, and the fact that he made 5 assists, you could say the following things:

* He was more ready to go upper and find that kind of pass, which is something bigmick has asked often here.
* He was more participative in the crucial moment of the play.

You could for instance ask to Alonso to do that more often. You could link that to the notion of playing well, it's fair enough.

But the core of our disagreement is this, probably due to different views about football (normal thing):

If you want to see how many passes Alonso makes without creating anything

Forget the "assist" to Torres. Why the second half was better and we played better? because you had a man that under the pressure of Sunderland he knew to break that pressure better. None of that passes finished in a goal, neither did the next to that pass, but suddenly, you were breaking their pressure, you were allowing your team mates to go upper, and you were dominating. That's what makes Alonso quality and an international. And in my view, assists do not take that into account, and certainly it's creating something.

It's true that I'm used  to a more continental football, that SOMETIMES leads to not useful passes. But in my view, what Alonso did against Sunderland is an important part of his game, that initial passes that allows the team to mount something later.

[account deleted by request]

The problem is Sabre that he has done little of that for a long while. Most of his passing (either by choice or instruction) has been sideways and shown little creativity or vision. We could get any average prem player to pass the ball 10ft sideways, excluding the odd Hollywood ball.

When Alonso is playing well for us (NOT SPAIN) he plays the ball forward quickly and accurately more than sideways and backwards. We are a team based more on quick incisive breaks forward, rather than on slower more controlled probing. Its one of the reasons I get so frustrated with Kuyt, as many quick moves grind to a halt as soon as they reach Kuyt.

Yes Kuyt keeps posession well, but only at the expense of time and many many backward passes.  Similarly with Alonso, his passes have become more and more negative and we have seen much less frequently the through balls and forward passes that excited many of us in his first couple of seasons.

Maybe we will now see the rebirth of Alonso,  he has a couple of genuine strikers to aim at now, so hopefully the good form he has shown in pre-season and against Sunderland can be maintained rather than just a brief interlude before settling back into mediocrity.

Most of us KNOW when a player is playing well, and for all the talk of what makes Alonso quality and an International, he hasn't been playing top quality football for LIVERPOOL for a long while. The odd game here and there is not good enough for Liverpool and hopefully he has now got that message loud and clear.

Making a difference when replacing a young inexperienced squad player is considerably different to making a difference when the likes of Mascherano and Lucas are available.

Alonso has made a good start to the season, now all he has to do is continue to play as we all know he can, rather than as we have all seen much too often over the past couple of years.

[Sabre]

Well at least I understand where you come from and I know better what you expect of Alonso to consider his game good, which is something that sometimes I didn't understand well in the middle of a season thread -- with all the league frustrations and everything going on.

I'm afraid that sometimes I preffer a more elaborated game and for me not every side or back pass is the same -- there are times where it's a good idea. At least I understand better your position. I thought that most of the stick that came to Alonso was because the balls he lost or a lack of a greater threat when it comes to range efforts. But it seems as if most of you stress a lot of importance in being both mobile and direct, aspects of the game in which I admit Alonso hasn't based his game these seasons.

Fair enough.

Making a difference when replacing a young inexperienced squad player is considerably different to making a difference when the likes of Mascherano and Lucas are available.

This is beyond doubt, and one of the reasons that people were more ready to say he did a good game, IMHO. Mascherano is a great player.

P.S. Simari, I missed your post in the middle of replies. It was only a vague impression, no doubt everyone of you will have an opinion about Alonso and a level of expectations. Fair enough aswell.

[account deleted by request]

Personally I would like us to show more patience in our game, I think we do play too much quick direct football, but while our game is based around it at the moment we need him to compliment that style. Once we get more players who are comfortable on the ball maybe we can build a little more and play a less "hurried" game.

In truth I think as long as Rafa and Gerrard are at Liverpool we won't see a more "elaborate" game.

[Number 9]

Sabre if i was from San Sebatian would ya tell me i was beautiful?

Alonso needs to try harder...work harder,be better for the team and overall produce more in going forward!
He needs to put his head down an re produce the form he had in 05...LFC cannot have passengers...we are already carrying two Fu*king yanks!!

[aCe']

I really think Alonso is a great player. What he offers the club in terms of passing range and defensive awareness are much admired by many. However as Sabre mentioned in an earlier post -more often than not- what he does on the pitch doesnt seem to be what we need given our style of play, staring lineup, tactics...etc
In many ways, same can be said about Kuyt, Pennant and most of our fullbacks..
At times, we seem very static and immobile. You rarely see any of our players attacking empty spaces outside of their zonal positions and while that might be useful at times it can also be very frustrating when you are drawing or losing a game you sshould be winning.
Another problem i have with our playing style is that we seem to play very deep in our own half, even when pressuring opponents, i noticed we now tend to close down in our own half more often and try to rely on counter attacks . Again, very frustrating at times. Alonso imo would definetely play alot better if we can somehow play a more possession-based style with wide player playing narrower rather than wider (we dont have any good wide player that can take on fullbacks and cross a decent ball in) with him dictating much of the play higher up the pitch. People keep talking about his long passes and his range of passing but imo if we can just get him to do the simple things in play build up andd open up enough spaces for the more attack-minded players (again higher up the pitch) we could very well see the best of him. Afterall, the way i see it, the only reason we wanted to get barry to the club was to have a midfielder who can play short simple passes through the middle and dictate the game without trying anything spectacular (very carrick like).

[66-1112520797]

Most of last season, he sat back in our half and did not pass forward much. In that one half against sunderland, he was constantly ACCURATELY passing forward and moving the ball upfield as opposed to stagnating in midfield. We can forgive a few stray passes if it is countered by a large number of accurate passes moving upfield as he did against Sunderland.

Exactly