Liverpool FC Forum

[7_Kewell]

over the last 4 matches we've lacked creativity and ideas…why?  It’s down to our wing play! Every time Kuyt, Babel, Batfink or anyone else on the wing gets the ball they attempt to run into the penalty area….today was of no exception. Each time, they attempted to do it and each time they ran into defenders. For most of today’s game we’ve been playing with 4 players in the opposition penalty box and it’s hardly surprising to see us struggle.

Then, Babel runs to the by line and puts a cross in…probably the ONLY cross we played from the by line…and we score.  FFS Rafa, If I can see it why the f**king hell can’t you guys on the bench….forget Barry for 18 million…just buy us ONE CLASS WINGER….thats all  I ask!

[Toffeehater]

Babel's played about 40 minutes of good football this season so i think he should be excluded . I'd like to see El zhar given a run in the side , can cause a fair bit of problems the youngster . One more reason we're , its cos we've changed the formation , revert it back to the 4-5-1 with keane playing behind torres as a 2nd striker in the hole

[JC_81]

over the last 4 matches we've lacked creativity and ideas…why?  It’s down to our wing play! Every time Kuyt, Babel, Batfink or anyone else on the wing gets the ball they attempt to run into the penalty area….today was of no exception. Each time, they attempted to do it and each time they ran into defenders. For most of today’s game we’ve been playing with 4 players in the opposition penalty box and it’s hardly surprising to see us struggle.

Then, Babel runs to the by line and puts a cross in…probably the ONLY cross we played from the by line…and we score.  FFS Rafa, If I can see it why the f**king hell can’t you guys on the bench….forget Barry for 18 million…just buy us ONE CLASS WINGER….thats all  I ask!

Someone's been listening to Andy Townsend...

What a fu.cking pointless topic.  Any fu.cking 5 year old can see it's the wide positions that let us down.

Think of how we can actually address it and put some thought into it, and then it's worth a topic, instead of regurgitating the usual sh.it spewed by anti-Liverpool commentators and pundits.

[bigmick]

****I should say sorry for the long post. At least it means those who find my posts a bit boring won't actually read it which is cool.****




When people say footballs not rocket science, it's true but it is a bit more complicated than some make out on the telly. A football team is made up of many component parts, and the function of each one has a direct and indirect effect on the other. For instance many people latched onto the idea last season that the fact that agger wasn't playing was having an effect on our attacking play, and it was. Not that it meant he would have scored 15 goals or anything, but because he is prepared to bring the ball out an attacker has to be detailed to pick him up or at least be aware of him. This has the knock on effect of the attacker not being able to mark Alonso out of the game quite so readily. People then developed the point and reasoned that when we played with Sami in defence, it stretched the play as we had to defend a deeper line, which we did. It meant it was much harder for us to press the ball further up the pitch without teams playing through us.

So our attacking play this season isn't functioning for many reasons, not just that we lack quality out wide. We had the same players out wide last season and scored freely as well as playing much more fluently, so it can't be the only reason.

My hunch as I've touched on in the match thread is that we are finding the transition to 4-4-2 (or 4-2-3-1 as I know some people prefer that description) from what was a 4-5-1 in my book (although I know some people are probably of the opinion that we haven't actually changed the formation) to be difficult. Whether or not the formation and pattern has changed (and like I say I think it has) the link play between Torres and Gerrard has certainly diminished from what I've seen.

My feeling is that the introduction of Keane has either taken up spaces which Torres used to exploit, and/or filled up gaps which Gerrard would arrive into. This is why our play probably looks even narrower than it used to. It's addressing this problem (as well as the introduction of some quality wide midfielders I'll concede) which will solve the issue.

There are to my mind three potential solutions to the central congestion problem, and we need to adopt one as policy quickly because our play won't improve until we do.

Firstly we could move Gerrard to the right to replace Kuyt. This would instantly improve our right side by 500% or so in terms of goals, assists, game breaking capability etc. I'm not slgging kuyt off particularly here, Gerrard is an absolutely fantastic right midfielder who would improve every team bar possibly Man Utd when Ronaldo's playing. This is actually what I'd do.

Secondly, we could ask Keane to play much more away from the box than he currently is. He needs to drop into opposite channels, drop into the hole, show long when Torres shows short and vice versa. This is what I think they're trying to do now, and for one reason and another it isn't working. Chief amongst those reasons could be that he is insufficiently confident as of yet to exploit his freedom. It does though require much cohesion and interplay between himself, Torres and Gerrard. It may take a while to get this though, so I'd go for a change.

The third way id adopting a more genuine 4-2-3-1. I know some posters think we already play this, but I'm not sure we really do in the classic sense. Normally in a 4-2-3-1, the full-backs would be bombers but we don't really have the players I think. You'd end up with the three being probably Gerrard, Keane and possibly Babel, but without the fullbacks you'd end up being even more narrow. Also the likely signing of Riera means this is less likely a scenario to my mind.

No, I think it's time for Gerrard on the right. Ask Keane to drop in centrally to the hole (which'll be easier when the captains not there) and that will also free torres up to play more his natural game. Gerrardwill do the stuff from the right, and the introduction of a left midfielder would give it balance. Keane dropping in would compensate somewhat for xabi's reluctance to get forward, and first change in emergency could see Gerrard come into the centre, Babelk to the right etc etc.

It's not just about quality wide men though, althoguh they are important. I also think to go back to an earlier point, like last season Agger can't come back quick enough.

[Simari]

How about Babel on the left with El-Zhar on the right - and Keane / Kuyt rotated in the hole behind Torres? Assuming we don't sign Riera ofcourse ...

My main concern with playing Stevie on the right is that we will have Masch and Alonso in the middle. If Alonso continues to shield the defense and play keep-ball with them, what exactly will Masch do, as it would eat up his space.

I do agree that Stevie is our best right-sided midfielder (and one of the best in the EPL), but it may be worth giving ElZhar a run of games.

[Sabre]

I wouldn't consider what we have seen today a pure 4-4-2 because Keane comes to receive balls. Perhaps as Bigmick says he could fall to the wings (or work the channels) more, but I've seen Keane coming for balls and in the Boro game Alonso looked for him constantly.

Despite his game as a whole wasn't good today, I think there's a promising partnership upfront this season. I like Keane.

We cannot afford mistakes like the one Alonso did against Boro -- BTW trying to look for a direct pass -- or the ones that led to frightening moments today. How many times did we leave their players off side? one? there was a chance today in which our back line failed to do their job and they didn't score because the opposition players disturbed each other.

We have to start pressing and recovering balls as we know to do before any signing came, and then another factor I mention is that it's still August, I have no doubts in November we'll play better, not only because Mascherano will come, but because the team will be more gelled.

[lakes10]

well we now know that Gerrard needs a op in the morning so its safe to say he has not beenat his best and his mind has not been 100% on the games.

add that to the fact that we sold some good players and did not buy any players that fit into our team right now (kean needs to do a lot more).

[Fo Dne]

over the last 4 matches we've lacked creativity and ideas…why?  It’s down to our wing play! Every time Kuyt, Babel, Batfink or anyone else on the wing gets the ball they attempt to run into the penalty area….today was of no exception. Each time, they attempted to do it and each time they ran into defenders. For most of today’s game we’ve been playing with 4 players in the opposition penalty box and it’s hardly surprising to see us struggle.

Then, Babel runs to the by line and puts a cross in…probably the ONLY cross we played from the by line…and we score.  FFS Rafa, If I can see it why the f**king hell can’t you guys on the bench….forget Barry for 18 million…just buy us ONE CLASS WINGER….thats all  I ask!

Someone's been listening to Andy Townsend...

What a fu.cking pointless topic.  Any fu.cking 5 year old can see it's the wide positions that let us down.

Think of how we can actually address it and put some thought into it, and then it's worth a topic, instead of regurgitating the usual sh.it spewed by anti-Liverpool commentators and pundits.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[account deleted by request]

****I should say sorry for the long post. At least it means those who find my posts a bit boring won't actually read it which is cool.****




When people say footballs not rocket science, it's true but it is a bit more complicated than some make out on the telly. A football team is made up of many component parts, and the function of each one has a direct and indirect effect on the other. For instance many people latched onto the idea last season that the fact that agger wasn't playing was having an effect on our attacking play, and it was. Not that it meant he would have scored 15 goals or anything, but because he is prepared to bring the ball out an attacker has to be detailed to pick him up or at least be aware of him. This has the knock on effect of the attacker not being able to mark Alonso out of the game quite so readily. People then developed the point and reasoned that when we played with Sami in defence, it stretched the play as we had to defend a deeper line, which we did. It meant it was much harder for us to press the ball further up the pitch without teams playing through us.

So our attacking play this season isn't functioning for many reasons, not just that we lack quality out wide. We had the same players out wide last season and scored freely as well as playing much more fluently, so it can't be the only reason.

My hunch as I've touched on in the match thread is that we are finding the transition to 4-4-2 (or 4-2-3-1 as I know some people prefer that description) from what was a 4-5-1 in my book (although I know some people are probably of the opinion that we haven't actually changed the formation) to be difficult. Whether or not the formation and pattern has changed (and like I say I think it has) the link play between Torres and Gerrard has certainly diminished from what I've seen.

My feeling is that the introduction of Keane has either taken up spaces which Torres used to exploit, and/or filled up gaps which Gerrard would arrive into. This is why our play probably looks even narrower than it used to. It's addressing this problem (as well as the introduction of some quality wide midfielders I'll concede) which will solve the issue.

There are to my mind three potential solutions to the central congestion problem, and we need to adopt one as policy quickly because our play won't improve until we do.

Firstly we could move Gerrard to the right to replace Kuyt. This would instantly improve our right side by 500% or so in terms of goals, assists, game breaking capability etc. I'm not slgging kuyt off particularly here, Gerrard is an absolutely fantastic right midfielder who would improve every team bar possibly Man Utd when Ronaldo's playing. This is actually what I'd do.

Secondly, we could ask Keane to play much more away from the box than he currently is. He needs to drop into opposite channels, drop into the hole, show long when Torres shows short and vice versa. This is what I think they're trying to do now, and for one reason and another it isn't working. Chief amongst those reasons could be that he is insufficiently confident as of yet to exploit his freedom. It does though require much cohesion and interplay between himself, Torres and Gerrard. It may take a while to get this though, so I'd go for a change.

The third way id adopting a more genuine 4-2-3-1. I know some posters think we already play this, but I'm not sure we really do in the classic sense. Normally in a 4-2-3-1, the full-backs would be bombers but we don't really have the players I think. You'd end up with the three being probably Gerrard, Keane and possibly Babel, but without the fullbacks you'd end up being even more narrow. Also the likely signing of Riera means this is less likely a scenario to my mind.

No, I think it's time for Gerrard on the right. Ask Keane to drop in centrally to the hole (which'll be easier when the captains not there) and that will also free torres up to play more his natural game. Gerrardwill do the stuff from the right, and the introduction of a left midfielder would give it balance. Keane dropping in would compensate somewhat for xabi's reluctance to get forward, and first change in emergency could see Gerrard come into the centre, Babelk to the right etc etc.

It's not just about quality wide men though, althoguh they are important. I also think to go back to an earlier point, like last season Agger can't come back quick enough.

A simpler explanation might be that we have just missed Masch   

[Dalglish]

Well said Saint .................

Gerard is not an option for the next 15 days so Masch coming back with Alonso is going to make us ultra defensive in the midfield which begs the Q where will our threat come from ?

For too long we have relied on the genius of Stevie G and more recently Torres to get us out of the mire. It's time a few of the other players step up to the creative plate

Kuyt may be the hero tonight but we all know he's a shorter version of Biscan !

Yossi has faded dramatically since joining from West Ham and needs to find his left foot.

There are "possibilities" as Rafa likes to say but he needs to discover a few .........quick !

Walk on ........

[metalhead]

I would say lets give El Zhar a chance to start. He looked good coming off as a sub in the past couple of games.

[Sabre]

I would say lets give El Zhar a chance to start. He looked good coming off as a sub in the past couple of games.

Sorry I had to go to the WC and I didn't see a chance he had today, was that a penalty?

It's good the work that is being done in the youth system eventually appears in the first team. I think the lad needs minutes, and hopefully he'll get them in games we're winning, progresively.

That's the way to invite youngsters to the team, not giving 6 them a match against Arsenal in a cup and expect them to win the game.

[metalhead]

I would say lets give El Zhar a chance to start. He looked good coming off as a sub in the past couple of games.

Sorry I had to go to the WC and I didn't see a chance he had today, was that a penalty?

It's good the work that is being done in the youth system eventually appears in the first team. I think the lad needs minutes, and hopefully he'll get them in games we're winning, progresively.

That's the way to invite youngsters to the team, not giving 6 them a match against Arsenal in a cup and expect them to win the game.

My stream went off in the 70th minute

I didnt watch him tonight, but did see him in the last couple of games, he does well when he comes on and he does better than kuyt on the right hand side.

I would say he should start on sunday if Gerrard isn't fit.

[LFC2007]

Despite improved - our form remained intermittent, and incomplete in the last three months of last season. Torres and Gerrard hit a purple patch, Kuyt regained his confidence, and we played several teams who were poor defensively. The weaknesses we displayed then are the same weaknesses we have now, and our last four games have been reminiscent of one of those bliiiiiips we had last season, the difference is the result - we've been bailed out on each occasion this time round: Reina, Torres, Gerrard, and now KUYT.

[metalhead]

Despite improved - our form remained intermittent, and incomplete in the last three months of last season. Torres and Gerrard hit a purple patch, Kuyt regained his confidence, and we played several teams who were poor defensively. The weaknesses we displayed then are the same weaknesses we have now, and our last four games have been reminiscent of one of those bliiiiiips we had last season, the difference is the result - we've been bailed out on each occasion this time round: Reina, Torres, Gerrard, and now KUYT.

but can we keep it that long though? I don't think so