Liverpool FC Forum

[Alex G.]

Even though in the past Rafa has proven to be a very good coach from a tactical point of view, he failed in these 3 games and was outdone by Moyes.

I don´t think so, defending is always easier than attacking.

[GYBS]

Indeed form does go out of the window in a one off game. These weren't one off games though. We played them three times, and didn't win once. What's more, if we were playing them again at the weekend, would you be massively confident that we would manage to beat them on the fourth occasion? Even at Anfield I certainly wouldn't be, particularly if Gerrard doesn't play.

every derby is a one off game mate - even if you play them 7 times a week

[bigmick]

every derby is a one off game mate - even if you play them 7 times a week

  Feck me GYBS you do talk some nonsense mate sometimes. We agree to differ.

[Leonmc0708]

In the last three contests, they played without a striker. Quite a strange, almost 4-6-0 set up. During 5 hours of football, we managed to score two goals against them (while they scored three against us). Both of our goals were scored by Steven Gerrard, one a shot from from 35 yards, and the other a well worked 1-2 with Torres followed by a calmitous piece of goalkeeping.

Thier set up is/was a bit unusual, but given our supposed tactical acumen I would like to have seen us be a bit more imaginitive in breaking it down. A couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, we could have played Gerrard down the right to exploit the fact that Leighton Baines, in common with every other left back in the league, wouldn't be able to handle him. We could have put our big tall bloke (Peter Crouch perhaps) up top and bombarded them if they chose to sit in. We could have played with a free striker, detailed to pop up wherever he chose (Keane perhaps) and sacrificed one of our centre halves. We could have easily played three at the back given they had practically nobody to mark, we could have encouraged our full backs to get ahead of the ball, even attack the box when the ball is on the other flank. We could have done many things but we chose not to.

We chose to just kind of carry on. We played them three times and we didn't manage to win one. It's all the players fault, innit.

Er Yes.

Or we could have threw Ray Kennedy on the left, Heighway on the right and put some balls in for Toshack to nod down for KEegan to finish.

[GYBS]

every derby is a one off game mate - even if you play them 7 times a week

  Feck me GYBS you do talk some nonsense mate sometimes. We agree to differ.

we can agree to differ then mate but will draw on my experience on seeing many many derbies going all the way back to 80s where you play them you get them out of the way hopefor a win the go back to concentrating on the rest of the games . Its a view that is shared by pretty much every liverpool player in any book i have read - just finished carras the other week and says the same thing and thommo as well . you can never ever predict what will happen in a derby no matter how the teams are playing before hand .

[bigmick]

every derby is a one off game mate - even if you play them 7 times a week

  Feck me GYBS you do talk some nonsense mate sometimes. We agree to differ.

we can agree to differ then mate but will draw on my experience on seeing many many derbies going all the way back to 80s where you play them you get them out of the way hopefor a win the go back to concentrating on the rest of the games . Its a view that is shared by pretty much every liverpool player in any book i have read - just finished carras the other week and says the same thing and thommo as well . you can never ever predict what will happen in a derby no matter how the teams are playing before hand .

I'm not disputing that derbies are game sin whcih formbooks can go out of the window, not that they are unique matches. I am simply saying that your statement that if we played seven games against Everton in a week "they'd all be one offs" is a bit silly, that's all.

They wouldn't all be "one off's". As we've seen very clearly from the last three matches, one game leads into the next and the knowledge you've gleaned from previous match ups comes into play. This was at the heart of my original post, my disappointment in our failure to make any headway against their somewhat unusual formation and set up, even after three attempts.

[GYBS]

every derby is a one off game mate - even if you play them 7 times a week

  Feck me GYBS you do talk some nonsense mate sometimes. We agree to differ.

we can agree to differ then mate but will draw on my experience on seeing many many derbies going all the way back to 80s where you play them you get them out of the way hopefor a win the go back to concentrating on the rest of the games . Its a view that is shared by pretty much every liverpool player in any book i have read - just finished carras the other week and says the same thing and thommo as well . you can never ever predict what will happen in a derby no matter how the teams are playing before hand .

I'm not disputing that derbies are game sin whcih formbooks can go out of the window, not that they are unique matches. I am simply saying that your statement that if we played seven games against Everton in a week "they'd all be one offs" is a bit silly, that's all.

They wouldn't all be "one off's". As we've seen very clearly from the last three matches, one game leads into the next and the knowledge you've gleaned from previous match ups comes into play. This was at the heart of my original post, my disappointment in our failure to make any headway against their somewhat unusual formation and set up, even after three attempts.

Its not silly at all mick - moyles set up his team to defend like f eck and then hope to score from a set piece - end of the day it work and fair play to him for that but he wont do that again against any other team . We controlled the first two matches just got let down by slack marking and last night we controlled big periods of the match but lost it when we went to ten men and then the guys where shattered and struggling .

[bigmick]

In the last three contests, they played without a striker. Quite a strange, almost 4-6-0 set up. During 5 hours of football, we managed to score two goals against them (while they scored three against us). Both of our goals were scored by Steven Gerrard, one a shot from from 35 yards, and the other a well worked 1-2 with Torres followed by a calmitous piece of goalkeeping.

Thier set up is/was a bit unusual, but given our supposed tactical acumen I would like to have seen us be a bit more imaginitive in breaking it down. A couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, we could have played Gerrard down the right to exploit the fact that Leighton Baines, in common with every other left back in the league, wouldn't be able to handle him. We could have put our big tall bloke (Peter Crouch perhaps) up top and bombarded them if they chose to sit in. We could have played with a free striker, detailed to pop up wherever he chose (Keane perhaps) and sacrificed one of our centre halves. We could have easily played three at the back given they had practically nobody to mark, we could have encouraged our full backs to get ahead of the ball, even attack the box when the ball is on the other flank. We could have done many things but we chose not to.

We chose to just kind of carry on. We played them three times and we didn't manage to win one. It's all the players fault, innit.

Er Yes.

Or we could have threw Ray Kennedy on the left, Heighway on the right and put some balls in for Toshack to nod down for KEegan to finish.

No we couldn't have thrown Kennedy on down the left, Heighway on or Keegan or Toshack because they've all retired. Neither could we ask why Rafa hadn't replaced them, because they retired a generation ago.

This is where I'd draw the distiction between the aforementioned players and Peter Crouch/Robbie Keane. Although we'd obviously all like to bring Barnes and Beardsley back,it's hardly the managers fault that neither of them are here.

It may or may not be the managers fault also that Peter Crouch and Robbie Keane aren't here either (I say here, meaning there before anybody points it out). My point is though, I do think the manager is at fault for neither being here/there and there being no replacement for the qualities they had. It all kind of goes in a circle really, bringing it back to what I was on about earlier with the squad building.

It's quite strange really that a manager who has spent four seasons talking about "options" and "possibilities", increasingly hasn't got any.

[GYBS]

isDoes crouch have to be dragged up again ? the guy was asked to stay and offered a new contract by the club and rafa wanted him but CROUCH himself turned it down and wanted to leave to play first team football week in week out cause it helped him increase his england chances . And shall we have a sweepstae on how often keane gets brought up in every match thread until end of season win loose or draw ? keane is no longer a liverpool player - the guy himself says he is now at HOME so he regards spurs as home and Rafa has explained the reasons for him going .

[bigmick]

Nobody is "dragging up" Crouch, I merely metioned him in a post. If people weren't so touchy about a fairly innocent remark, it would have been forgottent here. As for Keane being mentioned in every post, it isn't about Keane surely you can see that? It's the fact that we only have one legitimate striker. As Crouch and Keane were two legitimate strikers who we chose to sell and not replace within the last 12 months, it does mean that our "options" and "possibilities" are somewhat limited.

As for whose fault that is, well we all know. It's Rick Parry

[Leonmc0708]

In the last three contests, they played without a striker. Quite a strange, almost 4-6-0 set up. During 5 hours of football, we managed to score two goals against them (while they scored three against us). Both of our goals were scored by Steven Gerrard, one a shot from from 35 yards, and the other a well worked 1-2 with Torres followed by a calmitous piece of goalkeeping.

Thier set up is/was a bit unusual, but given our supposed tactical acumen I would like to have seen us be a bit more imaginitive in breaking it down. A couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, we could have played Gerrard down the right to exploit the fact that Leighton Baines, in common with every other left back in the league, wouldn't be able to handle him. We could have put our big tall bloke (Peter Crouch perhaps) up top and bombarded them if they chose to sit in. We could have played with a free striker, detailed to pop up wherever he chose (Keane perhaps) and sacrificed one of our centre halves. We could have easily played three at the back given they had practically nobody to mark, we could have encouraged our full backs to get ahead of the ball, even attack the box when the ball is on the other flank. We could have done many things but we chose not to.

We chose to just kind of carry on. We played them three times and we didn't manage to win one. It's all the players fault, innit.

Er Yes.

Or we could have threw Ray Kennedy on the left, Heighway on the right and put some balls in for Toshack to nod down for KEegan to finish.

No we couldn't have thrown Kennedy on down the left, Heighway on or Keegan or Toshack because they've all retired. Neither could we ask why Rafa hadn't replaced them, because they retired a generation ago.

This is where I'd draw the distiction between the aforementioned players and Peter Crouch/Robbie Keane. Although we'd obviously all like to bring Barnes and Beardsley back,it's hardly the managers fault that neither of them are here.

It may or may not be the managers fault also that Peter Crouch and Robbie Keane aren't here either (I say here, meaning there before anybody points it out). My point is though, I do think the manager is at fault for neither being here/there and there being no replacement for the qualities they had. It all kind of goes in a circle really, bringing it back to what I was on about earlier with the squad building.

It's quite strange really that a manager who has spent four seasons talking about "options" and "possibilities", increasingly hasn't got any.

Mathematics:

Torres > Crouch +KEane

[GYBS]

i have lost count the amount of times people including yourself have mentioned keane - he is gone now there is no point going over and over it again - we understand your view and your point mick but you dont have to say it in every post in every thread . we know he has gone and we know we are left with options but we have to deal with it and see what happens .

[bigmick]

I'm not sure I understand your point Leon. If you are saying that Torres is a better player than either Crouch or Keane I wholeheartedly agree. If you're saying he's a better player than both of them put together, he probably is yes.

I'm not sure though where it ties in with the earlier point of being able to change things, about having a Plan B and no actual people to put it into practice.

I'll have to go back and re-read it and make sure I'm not missing something, some rapier wit or a nuance which has passed me by. On first appearance though I must confess, there looks to be every possibility that you've resorted to talking b0ll0cks. Which I suppose is fair enough 

[Leonmc0708]

My point is though, I do think the manager is at fault for neither being here/there and there being no replacement for the qualities they had.

Torres replaces Crouchs chicken wire neck, score tally and lack of pace.

Torres replaces KEans lack of pace, bad attitude and general club footedness around the penalty area.

He is also better then both at their perceived good points.

THUS

there is a replacement for the qualaties they had.

[bigmick]

My point is though, I do think the manager is at fault for neither being here/there and there being no replacement for the qualities they had.

Torres replaces Crouchs chicken wire neck, score tally and lack of pace.

Torres replaces KEans lack of pace, bad attitude and general club footedness around the penalty area.

He is also better then both at their perceived good points.

THUS

there is a replacement for the qualaties they had.

Well arguably he does replace the chicken wire neck    I'll give you that. Unfortunately though, there are occasionally circumstances where Torres can't replace everyone all the time. If he were to get injured (Torres) then we'd see one of those circumstances. In that scenario, the fact we haven't got another legitimate striker other than the admittedly brilliant Torres, would become a problem. It was a bit of a problem in our last match to tell the truth.

The point I made was, I think the manager is at fault for leaving us in a situation where we only have one striker.