Liverpool FC Forum

by **big al** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:05 pm

Was at the match last weekend, Anfield road end. Had spent the friday night debating with a local bussiness man and millionaire about the state of the club. He thought Houlier was a genius. I think Houlier might even get a jo their when he does go.
Anyway this guy recons that GH has done finacial miracles even if he spent 114 million. We need another 86 million to build a new stadium, after thats build houlier can move forward. So got me thinking that perhaps the directors like Houlier because, actually he is a good manager. Our wage bill was once the highest in British football now a least a dozen clubs are higher. GH has balanced the books.
I argued back that all those teams with higher wage bills are also higher in the league. Arsenal are having to build a new stadium and yet they are still challenging for the title. My analysis is that GH is a good accountant with no sense of value for money not a good manager.

Went to anfield on Saturday the silence was deafing. I could not believe what I was hearing. Yes the crowd sang walk on but the rest of the game was like a cricket match. Apart from chants about Harry Kewell for what? To annoy Leeds fans?
My mates and I sat on the back row pulling the team apart. Stevie G showed commiment and passion. But on high I could finally see it all and let me say this. We are in deeper trouble than I thought. The fans need therapy. The team is second rate at best. The tactics are niave and lack the basic fundementals. I sat watching Pennant and new he was being given too much space to operate he supplied the cross for smiths goal. I saw this and wondered why GH could not. Halftime I turned to the guy next to me for his opinion and I walked out of Anfield traumatised. He poured his heart out and confirmed everything we have all been saying.

That guy is off down to Fulham this week, so I hope we do well for him But he turned to me in our conversation and said "d'ya know what mate for the first time I'm affraid what Man U might do to us in a fortnights time" I looked at him and said "me too mate,me too" Truth is I have never ever worried about Man U before we have always given them as good as we've got but now I'm afraid they are finally going to embarass us. The Anfield faithful are currently in such a depression its so so sad. The only thing they say repeatedly is "but this is Liverpool" they cannot believe what Gh has done to this mighty club. Don't get me wrong he's had his helpers, Souness, Evans even King Kenny contributed by walking out.

It therefore saddens me to see Daglish being touted for manager. We have quality, we have talent but the french accountant and the money men upstairs are not part of that. Its like a top team being relagated to the second division " It can happen here, But this is liverpool. Well folks it has happened. We are where we are because GH is actually making money for the men upstairs. If they were losing money he'd go. We can struggle on in the premiership as long as the money comes in. Thats the difference between Moores and Abrahamovic for example. One trying to make money in the league one is spending money to win the league. I think personally that its now time that one of the biggest clubs in world football follow Man U and go public. The world has moved on the Liverpool Directors have not.

by **116-1065305004** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:34 pm

I quite agree!

by **simic_ie** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:38 pm

While I agree with most of what you have just said, i don't believe Liverpool should ever go public, if that happens we won't just have a few directors controlling the purse strings trying to make money but a whole raft of shareholders. Besides Man U, how many teams do you know genuinely benefitted from going public. Look at Leeds, while times were good they splashed the cash spending a fortune. But look at them now. The y may have had more money than Liverpool in the good times, but now I don't see them with any sort of meaningful future. I know which I would prefer. Also how can you call the board stingy when, as you said yourself, they have spent more than £100 million on new players in GH's time. I'm afraid the fact that iverpool are in such a depressing situation is nobody's fault but one Gerard Houllier and his complete inability to get the best out of a taleneted buch of international footballers

by **JBG** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:35 pm

I don't know where you are getting this about Liverpool having a relatively low wage bill. Only Chelsea and UTD are ahead of us, and I'd say that we are on a par with Arsenal.

I wouldn't say that Houllier balanced the books at all. He has spent far more than he brought in through sales, and he only got us into the Champions League twice in five years.

Roy Evans never got us into the Champions League but that was because of the old format where only two (and later three) clubs qualified. Evans' team never finished less than 4th, which in todays terms he would have qualified for the Champions League every year!

Four years ago the money dried up at Liverpool (hence Houllier's signings of "bargains" such as Cammarra, Song, Meijr and Hyppia) and it was only a cash injection from Granada that Houllier was given the money to sign players like Ziege, Barmby and Heskey.

by **big al** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:13 pm

JBG Firstly JBG I got the wage bill info from an Anfield cronie someone wined and dined by the upstairs brigade. He was'nt defensive, the guy was actually boasting. I believe him and even checked it with a journalist friend there some truth in what he's saying. Don't believe me then investigate. Problems is that LFC is a private company don't have to disclose their cost's like a PLC. So halve the lies you hear are'nt the truth.

As for poor old Roy. He was out of his depth, what Souness left behind was a trail of devastation. Roy was the wrong man to pick up the pieces. Don't get me wrong I love the guy, just bad timing and lack of experience otherwise that French accountant would not be now installed at Anfield.

As for the money Houlier has spend Smicie, 114 million in five years to keep us in the top six is'nt a lot for a club such as Liverpool.
Now Can you tell me how much Houlier has brought in by the sale of player? I know lets see if anybody else out their does. Let me give you a clue the difference is very small.

I want Houlier out like the rest of you but do we want another yes man because thats what you've got and that's why he's staying till they either caryy him out in a box or LFC go public and the share holders make the calls. As for Leeds they are not even on the same financial planet as liverpool.

Folks I hate to tell you this but I heard more Irish, Scotish, Welsh and Far eastern accents at Anfield than scouser and anyone who's being going their for a while can tell you thats the way it's been going. Liverpool is thus a world giant as far marketability.

A PLC would remove the dinosaurs upstairs and give control back to the fans.

Please Mr houlier leave

by **supersub** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:51 pm

No way to a plc.that would be the death of liverpool not a saviour.Liverpool's wage bill is bigger than Arsenal's.big al u r getting some dodgy info of u rich mate who thinks he's in the know,yet I have a feeling he knows pretty much nothing of the financial side of Liverpool at all.

by **big al** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:47 am

Listen guys I'm no business minded person but let me try to explain it to you. In order to work out how much each club is paying towards wages you need to know what each clubs gross turnover is. You need this to make comparisons. Otherwise it would be like comparing a taxi with a plane IE they both carry passengers but they are totally different because of the distances and methods used. More importantly because of the costs involved. Taxi business's outside London (joke) do not have the same gross potenial turnover. Liverpool have one of the biggest turnovers in the league, excluding merchandising and overseas sales. In order to work out their wage bill after tax and employers contributions you need to be aware of income. With liverpool the private company thats impossible with PLC's its not. Anyway For example say southhamton made 10 million a year and liverpool 150 million. Southhamptons wage bill including manager and backroom staff is 9.7 million easy one at 97% of gross. Liverpool on the other hand could have 100 million wage bill ( as If) would have a wage bill 66% of gross thus liverpool wage bill is significantly smaller than a least a dozen clubs. Man U is'nt as high in the wage scales as most people think. Supersub you need to compare like with Like.

Please leave Mr Houlier

by **supersub** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:25 pm

Fact is Liverpool pay big money,always have and probably always will.PLC pay the shareholders the money and pay the players relatively smaller wages with of course a few exceptions who have big incomes,ie manu.
wages aren't a problem in attracting players to Liverpool the bloody team is,and the fact that most decent "Johnny Foreigners" think London is the only place to be besides manu.
One of the reasons why we end up with a load of useless players in the reserves is because nobody else can afford their wages to take them off our hands.We end up giving players away.Heskey could do a job for a fair proportion of teams in the premier but won't touch him for the cash he earns,not his retail value,which is buttons.
Sadly certain players are quite happy to languish in the reserves rather than play first team football for less money.This is not a new thing,remember Liverpool of the 90's,we had a full team of leeches who refused to leave and just played reserve footy..Paul Stewart,Jimmy Carter...etc.Souness created rich footballers who never kicked a ball..
money is not an issue at Anfield..Houllier is!!!
The board won't give him anymore money because they know his days are numbered,but aren't ready to tell all unsunder.Watch this space because January might make interesting reading if things are how we would like them to be.

by **JBG** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:39 pm

I'm not sure whether I would agree that Houllier is a "French accountant". When he took over he was prepared to let the so called "dead wood" go for free and had no interest in re-couping transfer fees.

Take the following for example:

Buys Nick Barmby for £6million. Gets one decent season from him and then sells him for £2.75million. Barmby was rumoured to be on £25-30 grand a week.

Christian Ziege: Pays £7.5million, one poor season and a court case with Middlesbro, lets him go for £5million. Ziege again was on big wages. Houllier later admitted that Ziege’s style (a wing back) didn’t suit Liverpool’s 4-4-2 formation. Why sign him then?

Bernard Diomonde: bought for £2.5million, hardly plays at all, currently on loan away from Anfield, no return on the investment.

Phil Babb: Houllier ignores him and Babb runs down his contract in the reserves, costing Liverpool one million in wages.

Rigobert Song: Liverpool made more than £500,000 loss in transfer fees.

Sean Dundee: given free transfer, waste of £1million transfer fee and wages.

Oyvind Leonhardson: Liverpool lost nearly £4million in transfer fees when they let him go.

David James: let go cheaply, even considering his up and down form.

Robbie Fowler: got £11million, but Fowler’s transfer value before Houllier joined was estimated at around £15million.

Patrick Berger: instead of trying to sell him last summer Houllier ignores him and lets him rot in the reserves, even when he returns to fitness.

Steve McMannaman: Houllier failed to persuade him to stay (ok, maybe his mind was made up to go anyway) and he leaves for nothing.

Sander Westerveld: Didn’t do too badly, but Liverpool made a £1million loss on him when they let him go. Now considered one of the best keepers in Spain.

Jari Litmannen: Signed a big contract, but never given a chance.

Marcus Babbel: Good signing at first, but Liverpool gave him a new contract when he was recovering from his illness. A nice thing to do, sure, but then we let him go off on loan.

What about Houllier’s purchases that are still at the club:

Igor Biscan: Bought for £6million. So far no meaningful return.

Emile Heskey: £11million: hasn’t justified his fee and wages.

Chris Kirkland: Overall transfer fee will eventually rise to £9million. Did we really need to spend this kind of money on a reserve keeper when we bought Dudek the same day?

El Hadj Diouff: getting better, but so far hasn’t proved he’s a £10million player.

Salif Diao: £5million.

Bruno Cheyrou: Cost £3.75million, absolutely no return on the investment yet.

Liverpool have an equivalent wage bill to Arsenal and are behind Chelsea and Man UTD in gross terms, but our wage bill would be reasonably low if you consider it as a % of overall turnover (i.e. Bolton have a figure something like 80%). The club posted a profit last year.

It is true that the financial position of the club has improved. In 1999 Rick Parry announced that they were £20 million in debt, but Granada bailed them out when they pumped £20mill into the club.

Since then revenues have increased and it is true that part of this is down to the success in the Cup competitions. Amazingly, Liverpool only received £1.5million less than Man UTD from the Champions League, even though we got knocked out early, and we almost closed the gap with our UEFA Cup earnings. That is not my figure, it is UEFA’s figure which they published in the summer (strangely, Arsenal made more money from Champions League TV money last year than Man UTD, even though Man UTD got further!).

I’m not saying the club is broke, but Houllier could have spent his money better, and I reckon that he has wasted money in a big way, rather than save it. Also, if he had done his job correctly we would have had more revenue this year if we had qualified for the Champions League.

Also, City analysists warned in the summer that Liverpool could experience financial difficulties in the future if they failed again to qualify for the Champions League or fail to challenge for the Premiership, as the would be less on live Sky broadcasts, which brings in a big bonus.

Also, while it is true that Liverpool are not a PLC and thus do not have to publicise their profits, they MUST (under law) submit yearly accounts to the Companies Office which are available to anybody who wants to look into them.

by **oldredeyes** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:34 pm

Wow!
I don't know about accountants in the Boardroom or in the management structure, but it seems we are developing expert accountants within our fan base. Cheer up lads!
I'm one of the lucky ones on this site having seen so many fantastic teams playing in our colours over the years. I grew up in an era when the supporters didn't give a toss about wages or transfers fees, as long as the players performed on the pitch. And we certainly had a lot of great things to be proud of in the Shankly - Paisley days.
Looking at all the posts on this subject just makes me think that football has been hi-jacked by marketing and money men, who now even have the fans talking the same way they do. At the end of the day whether your a plc or a private company you still need to deliver the passion and skill on the pitch. Two areas were we have failed in recent years. Passion comes from the fans and the players and we need to work tohgether on this in the future. I remenber times when you could see players physically lift as the walked on the pitch at Anfield to a roar that could be heard across the river. It's this special kind of partnership between fans and players that we need to get back quickly. And then we should let the accountants play somewhere in the bachground where they belong.

by **redandblue** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:40 pm

Big al's sentiments about the decline and fall of a once great club are spot on. But Houllier is no financial genius. Liverpool have a huge turnover including merchandising and TV rights. This is controlled by Rick Parry and the CFO. Houllier has nothing to do with this side of the business. His job, for the past five years, has been to coach the team, decide the tactics and play the transfer market. As we all know he has been an abysmal failure. It is just incredible that the Board has backed him year after year when our league performances and results have been poor. And he has wasted a huge amount of the club's financial resources.

But going public would not help the club. we are in dire straights because Moores and his bunch of merry men have accepted mediocrity and have such a close relationship with the manager that they cannot bear to sack him. The governance of the club is not the issue.....ie whether we are private or not. The issue is how ambitious is the Board for success in terms of winning league titles. Moores seems to have given up on this objective and seems to define success as finishing fourth and winning Worthington Cups. It is disgraceful.

And as I have mentioned in previous notes, it is equally disgraceful that the Anfield faithful have put up with the mediocrity for so long. Why is everyone silent at games? Why aren't the fans chanting to get Houllier sacked? It beats me. I simply don't get it.

We, the fans together with the Board have ended up with the sort of team that we deserve. Unless we get off our backsides and start calling for change, Monsieur Houllier will be there for a while yet. Moores will only get rid of him if we tell him to.

by **69-1067957946** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:17 pm

Its too much to read

by **JBG** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:07 pm

What I was trying to say that money unfortunately counts a lot in modern football (the days of buying Alan Hansens from Ayr Utd for £25,000 or Ian Rushes from obscure backwater Welsh clubs are gone).

Liverpool are currently in a relatively ok financial state but if it continues to squander money on transfer fees and wages for players who fail to deliver, and thus not win Championships and play in the Champions League every year, we could end up like Barcelona or Lazio, owing millions to the bank.

Unless the club bucks up the chickens will come home to roost soon...

by **redandblue** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:29 pm

Yep, that's about it. There is already a massive gulf between us and United in terms of money as well as quality on the pitch.

But the bigger problem is that without regular Champions League football, we will simply not be able to attract the best players and we will lose players like Gerrard and Owen who will not tolerate playing in also-ran competitions like the UEFA Cup. Owen and Gerrard may well be signing new contracts, but that means nothing. If we don't qualify for the Champions League, they will be off, and who can blame them.

by **greenred** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:11 pm

thats a pretty damning analysis john barnes granny.So much money wasted and our expectations are lower than ever.Fourth place in the league seems the summit of our ambition these days.utd,ars and chelsea have pulled away and there is no chance of catching them under mr houllier.just look at the above statistics to see why.So much money on so many rubbish players.Houllier is a waster .Lets be honest,we are no nearer winning the league now than we were under roy evans, infact we are further away.I hope supersub is right and hes off in the new year.Lets hope celtic are out of the champions league by then so we get the manager we need.

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