Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

nationalism

Arguably, nationalism is a form of religion in its own right.  With all of the positives and problems that go with it. 

I can't disagree more, nationalism was born a lot later in history, and will perish much before religion dies.

Sabre answer this: 'What was the purpose of religion?'

then.... 'What was/is the purpose of nationalism?'.

How does Soviet communism under Stalin, Nazism under Hitler and the Catholic church in the 15/16th century differ?

All were bonded societies ruled with an iron fist, all persecuted non conformists, all sent our warriors to corrupt, destroy and replace non-friendly regimes and all were empire builders.

Of course nationalism is younger, thats because Lenin for example REPLACED religion with communist nationalism. The church in Italy did not oppose Mussolini, Rome did not protest the jew massacres. Why because they realised they would accelerate their own demise.

Religion only started being sweet fairly recently, until the pedos even spoiled that. How teh church has fallen from warlord to pedorast society.

I'll try to get my point across, but trust me, it's not easy for me in this language (I often understand and enjoy debates here, try to post what's in my mind and I give up).

Sabre answer this: 'What was the purpose of religion?'

The purpose of religion shouldn't be used in a past tense, as the religion had, have, and will have the same purpose. It's important we distinguis between religion and politics.

When Jesus says to love your enemies, or to forgive, that's religion. It provides spiritual nourishment. When a Spaniard was beheading heads with his swords in the name of God, that was not religion, that was an empire conquering, and that was against his own religion.

Similarly we should clarify what's "church". When I hear the word "church" I think of all the church, and especially those priests that teach poor people how to read in africa. But when I talk with people about church, the Vatican comes first. I don't like the Vatican. It's an state, with all it's politics. I don't like the richness in it. I didn't like Vatican's position during WWII. I didn't like Spanish church position in the Spanish Civil War.

So, if you want to discuss atrocities done in the name of religion, then I'll be seeing things eye to eye. What I'm defending is religion, the core of it, the kind of thing that can give a man peace or guidance.

I hope I've made clear what I'm defending here. Now we can discuss Spanish conquering of America, although you overrate the power of 3 caravels, the Spanish conquered and killed, also plundered, but also did so in empires that were in demise or almost in the verge of falling down. I'm not making a justification, I'm saying those old empires were fascinating but like most empires were in decay. Had they not been in decay, that is, civilization would have conquered sooner or later, but Hernan Cortes couldn't have conquered with only a few men and convicing some local tribes.

The Spanish Inquisition gathered the worst of Spain. Spain has a noble and good part, but also has an evil and bad part in it's heart, and the Inquisition simply gathered the worst of the soul of Spain. I could talk about how we are the Spaniards for 4 pages (I think that if you love a country you have to know criticizing it), yet, let me say that what the nazis did against the jews has no comparison in history.

I equally hate those catholic pedos, and I'd send them to prison so that they're bummed by guys bigger than Misty Red. But I won't label the whole church at pedo, just for the respect I have to some priests and nans who have helped in Africa and other places more than many organisations.

So the purpose of religion? dogmas about divinity (not very important for me, and Buddism has no god), and spiritual guidance. Ultimately the salvation of the people

The purpose of nationalism? Nationalism is the exaltation of the country, everything for the country, and the well being of the people is behind the country.

Sometimes, when nationalism and bad use of religion gathered, we had the worst of humanity working. But religion per se, is not a bad think. Believing in a God, doesn't make me less scientific than Bob nor less analytical.

[Judge]

buddism is more of a lifestyle than a religion

i would say that that's not actually true, judge. its not as well defined as the majority of other religions but it has its rituals, its deities, its taboos and its monasteries, and various other trappings of 'mainstream' religion. its practiced by milions around the world and is said to be the 4th largest religion in the world.

there are certain things that set it apart from the other accepted models of religion though, such as the fact that some follow it alongside another complementary belief system, and that many don't feel the need to take part in public ceremony.

there though many who do just follow it as a lifestyle choice, picking out the bits they like. the same as many who adopt certain aspects of christianity without actually being a practising christian.

i blame the beatles.

that is essentially true andy.

when i was in Sri Lanka and spoke with many of the buddist ''religion''. They dont actually worship a true god in the sense of the word, but more embrace the lifestyle and enlightenment it brings.

so it could be argued its is both a religion and lifestyle, leaning more towards the lifestyle

[bunglemark2]

Reading this thread, from the island of Ireland (and some might consider even THAT comment an extreme nationalistic notion) I'm torn between giving some considered opinions on the subject and not....
I think though, speaking from the Republic of Ireland about issues that have plagued this island for centuries, and not having lived through some of the worst atrocities ever visited in this part of Europe, my comments would probably seem uninformed and ignornt.

I'd love to hear what the lads up North have to say though....

For me, there's nothing wrong with nationalism per se. I am a nationalist and proud of what it is, in its truest sense. It's when the lines get blurred and religion, sectarianism, bigotry and hatred  are introduced that nationalism becomes a dirty word though....

[tubby]

At the end of the day religion should really serve to make that person be a better human being in all aspects. Over the years it has become tainted, distorted and skewed to fit other peoples motives.

[Bad Bob]

They dont actually worship a true god in the sense of the word, but more embrace the lifestyle and enlightenment it brings.

Ahh, Judge opens the metaphysical can of worms!  Does religion require a "true God" to worship or is it more about embracing a particular understanding of how the universe functions (which may not involve a supreme deity or deities) and following an ethical code of conduct for operating within that universe? 

[dawson99]

I love it, Judge went to Sri Lanka for a week and is suddenly an expert in Buddhism... of course buddhism is a religion!!!

The teaching of Buddha that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom, and meditation releases one from desire, suffering, and rebirth.

One who has achieved a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment in accordance with the teachings of Buddha.

Spiritual enlightenment through a greater power or being

[Bad Bob]

I love it, Judge went to Sri Lanka for a week and is suddenly an expert in Buddhism... of course buddhism is a religion!!!

The teaching of Buddha that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom, and meditation releases one from desire, suffering, and rebirth.

One who has achieved a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment in accordance with the teachings of Buddha.

Spiritual enlightenment through a greater power or being

The end of desire brings enlightenment?  The Fit Birds Zone is decidedly not for Buddhists! 

[Judge]

I love it, Judge went to Sri Lanka for a week and is suddenly an expert in Buddhism... of course buddhism is a religion!!!

The teaching of Buddha that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom, and meditation releases one from desire, suffering, and rebirth.

One who has achieved a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment in accordance with the teachings of Buddha.

Spiritual enlightenment through a greater power or being

buddha is not a god, and secondly i didnt say i was an expert. i listened to the locals. you know the ones who are actually buddist !!

that fell on deaf ears with you daws

[Emerald Red]

The Spanish inquest down central and south america that destroyed ancient civilisations was done in the name of the church. The same church being good and holy, split south america down the middle between Spain and Portugal, hence Brazil speaks Portuguese. Rome threw the Jesuits out of Paraguay because they were becoming too powerful and upsetting the Franciscans. The church was actively involve in trying to convert China to christianity.  I´m not upset what they did, just illustrating that religion and nationalism are very closely linked.

You can draw similarities to all major ideologies through the course of history. The fact is that none can exist without the other, and society as we know it just wouldn't exist without any.

your right, everything would be a lot better.

Don't be so naive, Joe. People will always find an argument somewhere and a brutal method of which to solve it. If no ideologies existed, we wouldn't. It'd be just chaos.

[Emerald Red]

At the end of the day religion should really serve to make that person be a better human being in all aspects. Over the years it has become tainted, distorted and skewed to fit other peoples motives.

People just love to assume. I think that's whats really wrong.

[dawson99]

I love it, Judge went to Sri Lanka for a week and is suddenly an expert in Buddhism... of course buddhism is a religion!!!

The teaching of Buddha that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom, and meditation releases one from desire, suffering, and rebirth.

One who has achieved a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment in accordance with the teachings of Buddha.

Spiritual enlightenment through a greater power or being

buddha is not a god, and secondly i didnt say i was an expert. i listened to the locals. you know the ones who are actually buddist !!

that fell on deaf ears with you daws

so religion has to involve a God?

How many lengthy chats did you have mate?

 

[dawson99]

Religion is mans relationship with the transcendent. Interestingly, only those forms of religion which emphasize faith require worship. If you have experience you don't need faith. Worship is a distortion of the overwhelming awe that is felt when one does have a religous experience. Worship is kind of like a woman that only pretends to be in love with a man.
Religions that emphasize experience do not have worship built into them at all, hence the Buddhist saying - "if you meet Buddha on the road kill him" or from Christian mysticism "I pray to God to forget God" - Meister Eckhart.

[andy_g]

a quote from einstein

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom - and blowing the feck out of any heathen that don't believe what one believes oneself, e=mc squared, yadayadayada..."

[Reg]

The purpose of religion shouldn't be used in a past tense, as the religion had, have, and will have the same purpose. It's important we distinguis between religion and politics.

When Jesus says to love your enemies, or to forgive, that's religion. It provides spiritual nourishment. When a Spaniard was beheading heads with his swords in the name of God, that was not religion, that was an empire conquering, and that was against his own religion.

Similarly we should clarify what's "church". When I hear the word "church" I think of all the church, and especially those priests that teach poor people how to read in africa. But when I talk with people about church, the Vatican comes first. I don't like the Vatican. It's an state, with all it's politics. I don't like the richness in it. I didn't like Vatican's position during WWII. I didn't like Spanish church position in the Spanish Civil War.

So, if you want to discuss atrocities done in the name of religion, then I'll be seeing things eye to eye. What I'm defending is religion, the core of it, the kind of thing that can give a man peace or guidance.

I hope I've made clear what I'm defending here. Now we can discuss Spanish conquering of America, although you overrate the power of 3 caravels, the Spanish conquered and killed, also plundered, but also did so in empires that were in demise or almost in the verge of falling down. I'm not making a justification, I'm saying those old empires were fascinating but like most empires were in decay. Had they not been in decay, that is, civilization would have conquered sooner or later, but Hernan Cortes couldn't have conquered with only a few men and convicing some local tribes.

The Spanish Inquisition gathered the worst of Spain. Spain has a noble and good part, but also has an evil and bad part in it's heart, and the Inquisition simply gathered the worst of the soul of Spain. I could talk about how we are the Spaniards for 4 pages (I think that if you love a country you have to know criticizing it), yet, let me say that what the nazis did against the jews has no comparison in history.

I equally hate those catholic pedos, and I'd send them to prison so that they're bummed by guys bigger than Misty Red. But I won't label the whole church at pedo, just for the respect I have to some priests and nans who have helped in Africa and other places more than many organisations.

So the purpose of religion? dogmas about divinity (not very important for me, and Buddism has no god), and spiritual guidance. Ultimately the salvation of the people

The purpose of nationalism? Nationalism is the exaltation of the country, everything for the country, and the well being of the people is behind the country.

Sometimes, when nationalism and bad use of religion gathered, we had the worst of humanity working. But religion per se, is not a bad think. Believing in a God, doesn't make me less scientific than Bob nor less analytical.

Blimey Sabes, your post is longer than Big Mick´s ! you need a holiday mate.

Talking historically when religion was at its height, religion IMHO wasnt  infintiely about the subject, but was more a unifier of people, societies and common laws and beliefs. The church controlled the local population through the pulpit. Its role today is totally different, the church has lost its leadership role and focuses on ideology and spirituality. Its evolved out of the power business.

"When Jesus says to love your enemies, or to forgive, that's religion. It provides spiritual nourishment. When a Spaniard was beheading heads with his swords in the name of God, that was not religion, that was an empire conquering, and that was against his own religion."

I agree. 'Love your enemies' is phase 2, killing people - before you could love them, was phase 1.  Love your enemies existed in the bible but was it EVER practised?

"I don't like the Vatican. It's an state, with all it's politics. I don't like the richness in it. I didn't like Vatican's position during WWII. I didn't like Spanish church position in the Spanish Civil War."

As a catholic I agree with you, its an organisation and I dont know how it serves me. Its refusal to prosecute pedorasts, to refuse to condone birth control etc... is totally wrong.

"What I'm defending is religion, the core of it, the kind of thing that can give a man peace or guidance."

That is a noble concept and I completely agree with the comfort it gives millions of people worldwide but it wasnt the subject of the thread which was about the Mad Mullahs killing children and allowing jailers to rape them beforehand so they wouldnt die virgins.


To move the subject on ref religion, I have a serious gripe with RELIGIONS in general. They - christian churches, the muslim faith, buddism whatever are there to serve the people, protect the poor, defend the weak and comfort the sick. Right?

Then WHY has the role of the churches been taken over and done more professionally, more effectively, efficiently and more in line with religious ideals by major charities such as Oxfam, Save The Children and UNICEF?  The different churches have failed to evolve and are declining into a spent force, the world needs a unified and strong churches to defend the poor, feed the hungry and protect human rights. All the faiths preach one message and ignore reality. OXFAM today performs the role the churches are unwilling to perform, Unicef administer to the flock, Save the Children protect the innocent. The church sits back incapable of responding. Unwilling to respond. Those young girls killed in Iran, those little african lads who strave to death, the 9 year old african child soldiers must all go to heaven and say to god  'Where were you when I needed you?'. And what does god reply I wonder...........

[JoeTerp]

The Spanish inquest down central and south america that destroyed ancient civilisations was done in the name of the church. The same church being good and holy, split south america down the middle between Spain and Portugal, hence Brazil speaks Portuguese. Rome threw the Jesuits out of Paraguay because they were becoming too powerful and upsetting the Franciscans. The church was actively involve in trying to convert China to christianity.  I´m not upset what they did, just illustrating that religion and nationalism are very closely linked.

You can draw similarities to all major ideologies through the course of history. The fact is that none can exist without the other, and society as we know it just wouldn't exist without any.

your right, everything would be a lot better.

Don't be so naive, Joe. People will always find an argument somewhere and a brutal method of which to solve it. If no ideologies existed, we wouldn't. It'd be just chaos.

sorry you have such a pessimistic view of human nature. Without any countries or religions there would have certainly been a lot less violence in the history of the world, and I am not really sure we need either of the two anymore, despite their attempts to make it seem like we are dependent on them and to make everything shi.ttier so that we "need" them even more.