Liverpool FC Forum

[Kenny Kan]

But finds it hard.

Is there going to be more appeasement, they (generally) like to dictate to the host nations, social, lawful, religious beliefs but now - telling fans how to dress. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... m-crusades

f.uck off and support the French please...

The dress sense is dedicated to St. George, England's patron saint. What this ignorant Moslim fails to understand (learn about his host nation's heritage and culture), is, St George according to tradition was a Syrian who was in the Roman Army and was martyred for his beliefs during the Diocletian purges - he died over 300 years before Muhammad and could not have been involved in the Crusades, that were in any case initially a reaction to Christian pilgrims being robbed and harmed by Moslims and Moslim authorities.

[ethanr]

I understand where he's coming from to be honest, but at the same time he just needs to look at it in a different way.  England isn't England because of the crusades, it's England because it's England.  People will dress up like the knight's templar if they want, but just because they do that it doesn't mean by supporting England you're supporting the night's templar.  I hope England wins in Euro because of all the Liverpool players playing in the England side.  I'm American.  That doesn't mean that I was going for the British during our revolutionary war.  He can't look at the past and compare it to events that happened so long ago, because everybody has had a problem with everybody else at some point in the past.

He's an English Muslim.  Nobody should have a problem with that (although I know many do), and he shouldn't have a problem supporting and representing England because of what happened so long ago.

[Kenny Kan]

Bollox you understand him - he doesn't even know the meaning behind the 'fancy' dress, he's just made inferences based on ignorance and wants a little PC attention and what's worse is he's published this s.hit in a national newspaper.

[ethanr]

Bollox you understand him - he doesn't even know the meaning behind the 'fancy' dress, he's just made inferences based on ignorance and wants a little PC attention and what's worse is he's published this s.hit in a national newspaper.

But to him that would be like A Jew living in Germany and wanting to support the Germans, but a lot of German fans dressing like Nazis.  I'm not saying it's the same thing, but TO HIM it is.  He personally feels that Muslims were wrongfully attacked, and HE uses THOSE symbols to symbolize it.  All I'm saying is I understand why he's saying what he's saying, but I disagree with him.

[Kenny Kan]

Bollox you understand him - he doesn't even know the meaning behind the 'fancy' dress, he's just made inferences based on ignorance and wants a little PC attention and what's worse is he's published this s.hit in a national newspaper.

But to him that would be like A Jew living in Germany and wanting to support the Germans, but a lot of German fans dressing like Nazis.  I'm not saying it's the same thing, but TO HIM it is.  He personally feels that Muslims were wrongfully attacked, and HE uses THOSE symbols to symbolize it.  All I'm saying is I understand why he's saying what he's saying, but I disagree with him.

That is a shocking column in a national newspaper, it's based around his feelings with NO facts what so ever, and he's got the two mixed up...badly. It's being published for 50 odd million people to read - it only has to take a handful of uneducated Moslim's to read that s.hit, before they all bundle into a poxy little flat in Luton somewhere and make a bomb, it only has to take some sort of Moslim authority to push some 'professional victim' s.hit through council or parliament to 'try' and do something about this, it only insights anger and hate AND ALL BECAUSE THE BLOKE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT!

The article asks why it is so hard to be a Moslim & England fan.

The real question should be, why is it so hard to be a Moslim?

[ethanr]

Besides aren't England fans representing St. George? Not the crusades...

Many Muslims actually respect St. George.  He is a part of Muslim culture to many.

[Kenny Kan]

Besides aren't England fans representing St. George? Not the crusades...

Many Muslims actually respect St. George.  He is a part of Muslim culture to many.

Erh, yes & yes... go figure...

[ethanr]

That seems a little over the top.  If anybody is going to make a bomb, they're going to make a bomb regardless of the fact that they probably will never even come close to reading an article like this in the paper.  Not all Muslims are bad people.. Very few are.  I'm sure the % of Muslims that are extremists and would do something like that are similar, actually less than the % of English people who are murderers.

Extremists who would make bombs to hurt people don't need something justifiable to do it, they'll just do it.  Murderers don't need a justifiable reason to murder somebody, they'll just do it.  These people just make themselves believe it's justifiable.  An article in the paper like this wouldn't push an extremist over the top to make a bomb, and if it did then he would probably be making a bomb over some other bull Sh*t within the next week anyway.

[Kenny Kan]

That seems a little over the top.  If anybody is going to make a bomb, they're going to make a bomb regardless of the fact that they probably will never even come close to reading an article like this in the paper.  Not all Muslims are bad people.. Very few are.  I'm sure the % of Muslims that are extremists and would do something like that are similar, actually less than the % of English people who are murderers.

Extremists who would make bombs to hurt people don't need something justifiable to do it, they'll just do it.  Murderers don't need a justifiable reason to murder somebody, they'll just do it.  These people just make themselves believe it's justifiable.  An article in the paper like this wouldn't push an extremist over the top to make a bomb, and if it did then he would probably be making a bomb over some other bull Sh*t within the next week anyway.

Yes it was over the top - but so was the article in a NATIONAL NEWSPAPER.

Why is it so hard to be a Moslim?

BTW - your analogy to the Jews/German's and Nazi thing is a poor one, the two issues aren't analogous.

I'm sure the % of Muslims that are extremists and would do something like that are similar, actually less than the % of English people who are murderers.

Can you back this bold statement up with any facts? Or should I write it off as more 'opinion'.

[ethanr]

That seems a little over the top.  If anybody is going to make a bomb, they're going to make a bomb regardless of the fact that they probably will never even come close to reading an article like this in the paper.  Not all Muslims are bad people.. Very few are.  I'm sure the % of Muslims that are extremists and would do something like that are similar, actually less than the % of English people who are murderers.

Extremists who would make bombs to hurt people don't need something justifiable to do it, they'll just do it.  Murderers don't need a justifiable reason to murder somebody, they'll just do it.  These people just make themselves believe it's justifiable.  An article in the paper like this wouldn't push an extremist over the top to make a bomb, and if it did then he would probably be making a bomb over some other bull Sh*t within the next week anyway.

Yes it was over the top - but so was the article in a NATIONAL NEWSPAPER.

Why is it so hard to be a Moslim?

BTW - your analogy to the Jews/German's and Nazi thing is a poor one, the two issues aren't analogous.

I'm sure the % of Muslims that are extremists and would do something like that are similar, actually less than the % of English people who are murderers.

Can you back this bold statement up with any facts? Or should I write it off as more 'opinion'.

His article was more unintelligent than over the top.  He sounds like an absolute moron considering his facts aren't right.  But again, TO HIM, he believes that the Muslims were attacked in the crusades without also recognizing the Muslim attacks in France and Rome (If I'm not mistaken).  TO HIM the crusades were just an attack on a people for no justifiable reason.  TO HIM AND THE WAY HE WROTE HIS ARTICLE he presents it like they were a people being persecuted by the crusaders, just like the Jews were being persecuted by the Nazis.  I'm not saying I agree with his view, that's just how it sounds to me.

And no I can't back that bold statement up with any facts, which is why I didn't say "In fact..." I said, "I'm sure..." which leaves room for inaccuracies and doubt, I'm just tired of so many people acting like so many Muslims are horrible people when in reality running into an extremist Muslim in England, IN MY OPINION, would be very rare.

[Kenny Kan]

His article was more unintelligent than over the top.  He sounds like an absolute moron considering his facts aren't right.  But again, TO HIM, he believes that the Muslims were attacked in the crusades without also recognizing the Muslim attacks in France and Rome and Christian Spain before, during and after the crusades (If I'm not mistaken).  TO HIM the crusades were just an attack on a people for no justifiable reason.  TO HIM AND THE WAY HE WROTE HIS ARTICLE he presents it like they were a people being persecuted by the crusaders, just like the Jews were being persecuted by the Nazis.  I'm not saying I agree with his view, that's just how it sounds to me.

And no I can't back that bold statement up with any facts, which is why I didn't say "In fact..." I said, "I'm sure..." which leaves room for inaccuracies and doubt, I'm just tired of so many people acting like so many Muslims are horrible people when in reality running into an extremist Muslim in England, IN MY OPINION, would be very rare.

I lived in England 10 years ago, 10 fecking years ago, and I managed to run into a few, lovely chaps they were - I even invited them round for a cuppa. It's all well and good proclaiming the niceties of the many Moslim's while living in your ivory tower in sunny California - try visiting Luton, Bradford, Leicester, Rochdale, High Wycombe, Birmingham, Southall (London), Wembley (London), Neasden (London), Tower Hamlets (London), f.uck it try visiting the enclaves and ghettos in London then you may change your apologist tune somewhat and understand where "so many people" are coming from.

[ethanr]

His article was more unintelligent than over the top.  He sounds like an absolute moron considering his facts aren't right.  But again, TO HIM, he believes that the Muslims were attacked in the crusades without also recognizing the Muslim attacks in France and Rome and Christian Spain before, during and after the crusades (If I'm not mistaken).  TO HIM the crusades were just an attack on a people for no justifiable reason.  TO HIM AND THE WAY HE WROTE HIS ARTICLE he presents it like they were a people being persecuted by the crusaders, just like the Jews were being persecuted by the Nazis.  I'm not saying I agree with his view, that's just how it sounds to me.

And no I can't back that bold statement up with any facts, which is why I didn't say "In fact..." I said, "I'm sure..." which leaves room for inaccuracies and doubt, I'm just tired of so many people acting like so many Muslims are horrible people when in reality running into an extremist Muslim in England, IN MY OPINION, would be very rare.

I lived in England 10 years ago, 10 fecking years ago, and I managed to run into a few, lovely chaps they were - I even invited them round for a cuppa. It's all well and good proclaiming the niceties of the many Moslim's while living in your ivory tower in sunny California - try visiting Luton, Bradford, Leicester, Rochdale, High Wycombe, Birmingham, Southall (London), Wembley (London), Neasden (London), Tower Hamlets (London), f.uck it try visiting the enclaves and ghettos in London then you may change your apologist tune somewhat and understand where "so many people" are coming from.

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about this, because to be quite frank, it's not my place.  I've heard some pretty racist Sh*t come out of here, and despite the fact I live in "sunny California" (Both you and D__C have used that against me now) I'll stay away from that.

It's funny because so many people have this thought that so many Americans (especially Californians) are just flat out stupid, ignorant people because you watch television and act like those people represent all of America.  Have you been to America before and legitimately met some of the people?  Because 99% of us aren't that stupid, but we portrayed that way to people across the globe because people across the globe are ignorant enough to believe that Sh*t based off of what they see on television or hear from others without actually experiencing it first hand.  We don't all answers questions like those morons who participate in the beauty pageants, we make fun of them too.  We aren't all like those stupid ***** reality television stars from New Jersey, New York, LA or any other city for that matter, we make fun of them as well.

And I have met many, many Muslims.  There's a large population here as California is one of the most diverse areas in the nation.  I've gone to school with some, I've worked with some, I've been friends with some, and played football with many.  I've seen them take a lot of undeserved Sh*t from ignorant people.  The one thing I've realized about Muslims tho is that they're some of the most friendly, caring and loving people I've ever met.

[Kenny Kan]

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about this, because to be quite frank, it's not my place.  I've heard some pretty racist Sh*t come out of here, and despite the fact I live in "sunny California" (Both you and D__C have used that against me now) I'll stay away from that.

It's funny because so many people have this thought that so many Americans (especially Californians) are just flat out stupid, ignorant people because you watch television and act like those people represent all of America.  Have you been to America before and legitimately met some of the people?  Because 99% of us aren't that stupid, but we portrayed that way to people across the globe because people across the globe are ignorant enough to believe that Sh*t based off of what they see on television or hear from others without actually experiencing it first hand.  We don't all answers questions like those morons who participate in the beauty pageants, we make fun of them too.  We aren't all like those stupid ***** reality television stars from New Jersey, New York, LA or any other city for that matter, we make fun of them as well.

I used your place of residence because I guessed you hadn't visited England before and the places I've mentioned in them. I don't know why you've gone off on this tangent because the stereotypical 'dumb American' ad-hom hadn't crossed my mind. Like I said it was a place of reference, in which I don't expect you to understand where the gist of my post comes from. It was not an insult - I'm sorry you feel insulted because you live in California.

And I have met many, many Muslims.  There's a large population here as California is one of the most diverse areas in the nation.  I've gone to school with some, I've worked with some, I've been friends with some, and played football with many.  I've seen them take a lot of undeserved Sh*t from ignorant people.  The one thing I've realized about Muslims tho is that they're some of the most friendly, caring and loving people I've ever met.

You've made some positive generalizations about Moslim's and I have made some negative ones. However, I don't make such negative statements without what I think is justified reason and personal experience. Just like the writer of the article 'whinged' about how England fans dressed and was  offended by this. I whinge about how some of his cultural and religious beliefs are being indoctrinated into Western society and British culture more specifically, where they clearly conflict with the principles I've been brought up on. I believe I have more to moan about, than him.

However, if you believe that I believe ALL Moslim's are naughty people, then you are just as naive as the bloke who wrote that article; incidentally, what this thread was intendended about. 

Moslim's aren't a race - so it's not racist to say that you dislike it's religion or some of it's practices, or some of it's people from previous experience. So please, you and others need to stop banding the 'race' card around as a way to ultimately trump and suppress discussion - it's a straw man attack, in this discussion.

[Reg]

Ethan, sorry mate but you're talking through your hoop.

[tubby]

Quote from the comments section.

... but to brandish a sword and recall the brutal and bloody invasion of Muslim lands is portrayed as harmless banter.

Some historical events that preceded the First Crusade ...

AD 632 -- Muhammad’s death.

AD 635 -- Christian Damascas fell to invading Muslims.

AD 636 -- Christian Antioch fell to invading Muslims.

AD 638 -- Christian Jerusalem,and later Alexandria,fell to invading Muslims.

AD 650 -- Muslim armies reached Cilicia and Caesarea of Cappodocia. In the same period Muslim forces carried out raids on Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete and Sicily, carrying off thousands of Christian slaves.

AD 668 -- Muslim armies laid siege to Constantinople. They were repulsed.

AD 711 -- Muslim armies invaded Spain. By AD 715 they had conquered most of Spain.

AD 717 -- Muslim armies again laid siege to Constantinople. Again repulsed.

AD 732 -- Muslim armies invaded France. Charles Martel stopped them at Tours.

AD 792 -- The Muslim ruler of Spain, Hisham, called for a new invasion of France. An international Islamic crusade was assembled, and was repulsed by the French.

AD 827 -- Muslim warriors invaded Italy and Sicily, terrorised monks,and raped nuns. Sicily was held by Muslims until AD 1091.

AD 846 -- Muslim armies reached Rome, where they forced the Pope to pay them tribute.

AD 848 -- France was again invaded by Muslims. And again repulsed.

AD 1059 -- Pope Urban II launched the FIRST Crusade.