Liverpool FC Forum

[SouthCoastShankly]

I watch Fringe, some of you on here must think its a documentary!

[Big Niall]

God is about faith though, ghosts aren't...

Both don't have evidence to prove their existence or non existence, and faith can also be belief without proof.  So technically ghosts are about faith too, just non religious faith .

Not for people who have actually witnessed them, or felt them in their presence. A person can only be extremely narrow or closed minded to dismiss the existence of them. If scientist can prove in theory that there are worm holes in space that can rip and distort time, alternate realities and such, singularities etc etc, then what is so far fetched about ghosts if all we are is energy formed through a chemical reaction?

Scientists have proved NONE of the stuff you mention. They are theories.

Exactly, they are theories. Theories that are generally accepted as "possible". So if it's possible, then how is it so ridiculous to accept the idea of the possiblity of the paranormal when it too can be explained scientifically in theory?

We know next to nothing about black holes, hence scientists can make up all sorts of theories about what is possible. It is possible there are lepreachauns there, maybe Elvis is there. Still, there is no reason to believe this.

[Emerald Red]

God is about faith though, ghosts aren't...

Both don't have evidence to prove their existence or non existence, and faith can also be belief without proof.  So technically ghosts are about faith too, just non religious faith .

Not for people who have actually witnessed them, or felt them in their presence. A person can only be extremely narrow or closed minded to dismiss the existence of them. If scientist can prove in theory that there are worm holes in space that can rip and distort time, alternate realities and such, singularities etc etc, then what is so far fetched about ghosts if all we are is energy formed through a chemical reaction?

Scientists have proved NONE of the stuff you mention. They are theories.

Exactly, they are theories. Theories that are generally accepted as "possible". So if it's possible, then how is it so ridiculous to accept the idea of the possiblity of the paranormal when it too can be explained scientifically in theory?

We know next to nothing about black holes, hence scientists can make up all sorts of theories about what is possible. It is possible there are lepreachauns there, maybe Elvis is there. Still, there is no reason to believe this.

Well, here's a fact: everything is made up of energy and that energy takes different shapes or forms depending on certain events like chemical reactions, which are normally violent. You strike a match, the match causes a reaction which expells the inert energy it had into heat; the heat is expelled into the air and the air changes temerature or causes it to move and so on and so on. It's a continuous cycle that can be backtracked to an almost infinite point of a chain of events and other reactions that enabled you to strike the match in the first place. Point is, the energy you used up to move your arms was once contained in something else, in some shape or form. Energy in itself doesn't die. It doesn't cease, it simply moves on to other things. Now if our thoughts are produced from a chemical reaction to fire off electrical neurons in our brains, and if our emotions and thoughts are electrical or energetic in nature and if it's scientific fact that energy doesn't cease then that energy has to go somewhere else by the law of nature and everything else that this universe/reality is theoretically built on.

[andy_g]

Well, here's a fact: everything is made up of energy and that energy takes different shapes or forms depending on certain events like chemical reactions, which are normally violent. You strike a match, the match causes a reaction which expells the inert energy it had into heat;

sorry to be pedantic here but the majority of chemical reactions are not at all violent. the majority are in fact quite slow and gentle things, a trading or sharing of electrons.

the chemical reaction triggered by striking a match is an example of one of the violent ones, but has nothing to do with 'inert' energy - whatever that is. (energy by its very nature can not be inert - i'm guessing you mean latent energy). the match head contains sulpher, phosphorous and one or two other ingredients which at room temperature or a bit above are quite stable. the heat caused by the friction of striking the match puts enough energy into those ingredients to begin an exothermic reaction. the heat from that reaction is what starts the oxidative combustion - a chemical reaction between oxygen and the carbon based wood of the match stick.

i agree with you about the first law of thermodynamics as an explanation for 'ghosts' or 'ghostly' phenomena. the energy contained within our bodies goes somewhere when our bodies burn or decompose. most of it will go into feeding bugs and plants if we are buried or will be lost as heat if we are cremated, however we are still learning that energy and matter behave in weird and wonderful ways. who is to say that an explanation for 'ghosts' isn't something to do with an as yet undiscovered property of the energy of organic life forms.

i prefer the scientific explanation for everything. for me it actually adds to the wonder and magic of the universe rather than reducing it. but as some have said here already, things are only paranormal or super natural until we have an explanation for them. just because science then explains something doesn't make it any less wonderful.

[Big Niall]

If there are ghosts, wouldn't it be a fact by now?

We can never prove that something doesn't exist, but if it does exist then there should be proof on tape verified by sceptics.

[SouthCoastShankly]

Well, here's a fact: everything is made up of energy and that energy takes different shapes or forms depending on certain events like chemical reactions, which are normally violent. You strike a match, the match causes a reaction which expells the inert energy it had into heat; the heat is expelled into the air and the air changes temerature or causes it to move and so on and so on. It's a continuous cycle that can be backtracked to an almost infinite point of a chain of events and other reactions that enabled you to strike the match in the first place. Point is, the energy you used up to move your arms was once contained in something else, in some shape or form. Energy in itself doesn't die. It doesn't cease, it simply moves on to other things. Now if our thoughts are produced from a chemical reaction to fire off electrical neurons in our brains, and if our emotions and thoughts are electrical or energetic in nature and if it's scientific fact that energy doesn't cease then that energy has to go somewhere else by the law of nature and everything else that this universe/reality is theoretically built on.

Unfortunately you make a single fundamental flaw in your reasoning. You are correct that energy drives thought but thought is not captured by energy (chemical or electrical). The chemical reactions (between neurons) and electrical stimuli that produce them are all methods of triggering activity - nothing more.

Thought, consciousness and memory are the combined efforts of millions of neurons firing together, not the chemical reactions that allow them to talk to each other. For example, one thought may require thousands if not millions of neurons to fire to allow our brain to recognise the image. This has been proven with the use of modern technology, such as the CT scanner and MRI scanner.

Based on your reasoning it is fine to believe that a living person who is burned alive, maintains their consciousness because the memories contained in the brain were burned and converted to energy (heat). That is scientifically false.

[RedSi35]

My missus loves paranormal Tv shows ( Most haunted, Ghost hunters, etc ) she cant get enough of them. For me it just bores the pants off off me having to sit through 2 hours of people getting scared of the dark and their own imagination scaring them.

Most Haunted is classic for that, i do not doubt that there are paranormal occurences that occur, however, never being able to catch them on camera or provide more evidence than a very bad sound recording of some dodgy footsteps will ensure my sceptic view remains unchanged.

[shanks72]

With all due respect heimdall......

poor old, heimy

even when its not him everyone disagrees with him...

pmsl

I was running really late & me mate was coming round for us to go out. I ob' got 'heimdall' from the above posts...

Needless to say, I've amended my post...

p.s sorry heimdall, in case you read this!

[shanks72]

I am a christian and I know that the supernatural is very dangerous and should be avoided.

is the christian faith not extremely supernatural in nature?

resurrection from the dead, magic, holy ghosts, miraculous virgin births, talking fiery bushes, visitations and apparitions, etc etc etc

ghosts seem fairly ordinary after all that

Yes, you are right andy, it does necessitate believing in a supernatural God.

The word I should have used was 'occult', which is dangerous.

I'm impressed you know about Moses and the burning bush... 

[dawson99]

hehe

burning bush

[andy_g]

believe me, if it involves a bush, i know about it.

occult simply means hidden, and 'the occult' is an easy catch all phrase which some people use to include astrology and reflexology at one end and satanism at the other. nothing too dangerous about the former, really, while the latter is just a good excuse for people to run around naked, shagging each other and throwing a bit of cow's blood about. nothing too much wrong with that either when you think about it.

the majority of religions, including christianity, have plenty of 'occult' practices at their heart - in both senses of the word.

[shanks72]

hence scientists can make up all sorts of theories about what is possible.

You said it!!

Also scientists are human and sometimes make mistakes.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

believe me, if it involves a bush, i know about it.

occult simply means hidden, and 'the occult' is an easy catch all phrase which some people use to include astrology and reflexology at one end and satanism at the other. nothing too dangerous about the former, really, while the latter is just a good excuse for people to run around naked, shagging each other and throwing a bit of cow's blood about. nothing too much wrong with that either when you think about it.

the majority of religions, including christianity, have plenty of 'occult' practices at their heart - in both senses of the word.

Talking about placing words in the correct context
consider me your proof reader from now on   
Your loquacity has no boundaries 

[Greavesie]

hehe

burning bush

in the middle of all the debate I seen this post and started p!ssin mesel 

[shanks72]

hehe

burning bush

doh!!

I hoped that no one would pick up on that as andy got away with it in his earlier post.

Trust you dawes