Liverpool FC Forum

[JoeTerp]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Here is one I thought of the other day (expect more to follow in the coming weeks/months/years)

I wonder if something more like what happens in Brazil could work for Europe:
UEFA Champions League A (10 teams)
UEFA Champions League B (10 teams)
UEFA Champions League C (10 teams)
UEFA Champions League D (10 teams)
Europa League A (64 teams)
Europa League B (128 teams)

Only 3 more teams than are currently involved in European compettion.

Format: the champions league groups work like real leagues with pro/rel and league schedules (home and away with all the other teams)

I would think about having the winner of A host B for a final so that there can still be a CL final, but I am still unsure about that. I would also consider a neutral final, but I would be less for that as it does not give enough advantage to the winning team. Maybe something that if tied after extra time, the #1 team wins the tiebreak.

Bottom three teams in the CL A, B, and C automatically go down. A promotion/relegation playoff between the 7th A and 4th B, 7th B and 4th C, and 7th C and 4th D. Still not sure if this should be over 2 legs, one leg at the higher division team or 3 matches over a short period all at the same neutral location (sort of like what happens at Wembley for the promotion playoffs)

CL D automatically relegates 4 teams

Europa League A:
split into 16 groups of 4. (6 games) Top 2 teams advance to promotion phase. 3rd place teams leave competition with a spot in next seasons Europa League A. last placed teams enter relegation phase.

Promotion Phase: 8 groups of 4 teams (6 games). top 2 teams advance to last 16 knockout round. All 4 semi-finalists earn promotion. Not sure if it is worth playing the 3 extra games to determine a champion, depends on if the clubs want to play the extra games and how much money could be in winning the Europa League (difference between 16 and 19 games)

Relegation Phase: 4 groups of 4. Bottom 2 teams in each group (8 teams) are relegated to Europa League B.

Europa League B: all teams participate in 2 playoff rounds (reduces 128 to 32 over 4 games). Then 8 groups of 4 teams are formed (6 games) with the 8 group winners earning promotion to Europa League A. The bottom team in each group, plus the playoff losers are kicked out of Europe (104 teams)


Entry into Europa League B: Top 2 teams from top 51 counries that are not already in Europe. 1 team from country 52 and 53.

Some general rules on promotion: no CL division can have more than 3 teams from the same country. If there are 3 teams from England in CL A and a 4th English team earns promotion, the 4th team is only promoted if it finishes higher in the league table that season than the lowest placed English team in CL A. And in that case the lowest placed CL A English team would be relegated to CL B.

I would also want to see the return of the Cup Winner's Cup. This way it could be determined who is the best Cup team in Europe, and who is the best league team, in close to the same way that indivual countries decide. Although I would want teams competing in both if they qualified (in which case I don't think you would need a CL final). The top 9 countries plus the defending Cup Winners Cup winner get byes into the round of 32. the Bottom 44 countries play a play in round. For the big countries, it is 9 games max.  But that starts to seem like too many games. But at the same time, if you actually are good enough to compete on so many fronts, you're likely to have a deep team that could also handle this many games.  This would allow us to know who is the best "league" team in all of Europe, as well as the best "cup" team.

[Sabre]

I see some problems

1.- Money. Normal clubs are skint. Many clubs in Spain, when they have to do a long trip use the bus instead of a plane for economic reasons. Only primera teams that have good money use planes to go from Bilbao to Seville. For a skint club going to Moscow to play would be unaffordable economically. Especially the lower leagues would have troubles to survive.

2.- Traditions. European fans do not have a very developed European citizenship concept, while many of them are happy to face the best teams in the world, I don't think they'd change their local rivalries to play a game against Anorthosis, Dinamo Bucharest or Lille.

no CL division can have more than 3 teams from the same country. I

The level of lower leagues in Spain, Italy or England is ridiculously higher than in countries like Norway. 3 teams per country would mean that the 7th team of Spain might encounter the 7th team of Norway. You'd have unbalanced leagues.

[JoeTerp]

I see some problems

1.- Money. Normal clubs are skint. Many clubs in Spain, when they have to do a long trip use the bus instead of a plane for economic reasons. Only primera teams that have good money use planes to go from Bilbao to Seville. For a skint club going to Moscow to play would be unaffordable economically. Especially the lower leagues would have troubles to survive.

2.- Traditions. European fans do not have a very developed European citizenship concept, while many of them are happy to face the best teams in the world, I don't think they'd change their local rivalries to play a game against Anorthosis, Dinamo Bucharest or Lille.

no CL division can have more than 3 teams from the same country. I

The level of lower leagues in Spain, Italy or England is ridiculously higher than in countries like Norway. 3 teams per country would mean that the 7th team of Spain might encounter the 7th team of Norway. You'd have unbalanced leagues.

i don't know if this was made clear, but this would simply replace the Champions League and Europa League/UEFA cup not domestic leagues.  These teams can already be asked to travel the same kind of distances in these competitions, and generally only the biggest clubs qualify, so they should be able to afford it.

Although for the lowest division, Europa League B, it might make sense to have the 4 groups split by region.

[Number 9]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

[JoeTerp]

Visual (given a few years for teams to move their way up/down the ladder)
CL A:
Liverpool
Manchester United
Chelsea
Barcelona
Real Madrid
AC Milan
Inter Milan
Juventus
Bayern Munich
Lyon

CL B:
Arsenal
Man City
Aston Villa
Sevilla
Valencia
Atletico Madrid
Roma
Fiorentina
Wolfsburg
Stuttgart

CL C:
Genoa
Udinese
Villareal
Marseilles
Bordeaux
Tottenham
Everton
Hertha Berlin
Werder Bremen
Deportivo La Coruna

CL D:
SPorting Lisbon
Panathinaikos
Porto
PSV
Celtic Rangers
Shakhtar Donetsk
Lazio
Dynamo Kyiv
Zenit St. Petersburg
Hamburg


Europa League A

Group 1
Napoli
West Ham
Borussia Dortmund
Paris St. Germain

Group 2
Fenerbahçe
Benfica
CSKA Moscow
Mallorca

Group 3
Fulham
Ajax
Galatasaray
Slavia Prague

Group 4
FC Twente
Schalke
Standard Liège
Red Star Belgrade

group  5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 same kinda deal (those are probably "strong looking" groups as I would think each group would probably have teams more along the lines of Levski Sofia


Europa League B: the top 2 teams from each country that are not already in one of the other leagues. For a country that is really small, this is essentially going to be the league winners and runners up. for a big country this could be the 11th or 12th best team. Theoretically it could be the 16th and 17th best team from England that qualifies, but that would be very unlikely imo.



It is a system designed to let us know where exactly all the teams stand in relation to the others. How deep is the talent outside the top 4 in the premiership? how deep is the talent outside the top 8?  How good or how bad are Panathinaikos? We know they aren't as good as Arsenal, but are they better than West Ham or Stoke? Now we can know.  Also there would never be the statement at the CL winner was merely a "cup team"

[JoeTerp]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

I never said that people couldn't disagree, its just an idea FFS. Not like I called anybody a or anything.  I think almost everyone would agree with the statement "The Champions League is not perfect" so its not out of the question to come up with different proposals.  I put it far away from the normal discussion so as not to disturb anyone that didn't want to read it.

My point about the song was to try and stop the minorities of both fan bases from mocking the dead. Maybe if they could see just how many other people disagree with them, and the length that they are willing to go to show it, it would stop them from saying such things. doesn't have to be a song, it was just a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with looking and proactive solutions to get that level of hatred and disrespect out of football chants.

[JoeTerp]

The level of lower leagues in Spain, Italy or England is ridiculously higher than in countries like Norway. 3 teams per country would mean that the 7th team of Spain might encounter the 7th team of Norway. You'd have unbalanced leagues.

the design is actually more for the 7th (or 10th) team of Spain to encounter the 1st team of Norway which would be a much closer match up, and you would actually have some of the most balanced leagues in the world, with very, very small margins in quality separating top from bottom.

[Number 9]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

I never said that people couldn't disagree, its just an idea FFS. Not like I called anybody a or anything.  I think almost everyone would agree with the statement "The Champions League is not perfect" so its not out of the question to come up with different proposals.  I put it far away from the normal discussion so as not to disturb anyone that didn't want to read it.

My point about the song was to try and stop the minorities of both fan bases from mocking the dead. Maybe if they could see just how many other people disagree with them, and the length that they are willing to go to show it, it would stop them from saying such things. doesn't have to be a song, it was just a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with looking and proactive solutions to get that level of hatred and disrespect out of football chants.

You are trying to change things ..we like tradition,it was bad enough when the European cup became the Champions League!!
Apply it in USA soccer schools..but here?..I love our football culture the way it is.All good intentions Joe im sure.

If you want to re schedule anything..re schedule what you think about while you cr@p and realize theres better sense going down the toilet than in your head!

No thanks

[JoeTerp]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

I never said that people couldn't disagree, its just an idea FFS. Not like I called anybody a or anything.  I think almost everyone would agree with the statement "The Champions League is not perfect" so its not out of the question to come up with different proposals.  I put it far away from the normal discussion so as not to disturb anyone that didn't want to read it.

My point about the song was to try and stop the minorities of both fan bases from mocking the dead. Maybe if they could see just how many other people disagree with them, and the length that they are willing to go to show it, it would stop them from saying such things. doesn't have to be a song, it was just a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with looking and proactive solutions to get that level of hatred and disrespect out of football chants.

You are trying to change things ..we like tradition,it was bad enough when the European cup became the Champions League!!
Apply it in USA soccer schools..but here?..I love our football culture the way it is.All good intentions Joe im sure.

If you want to re schedule anything..re schedule what you think about while you cr@p and realize theres better sense going down the toilet than in your head!

No thanks

traditions are good and important if they are based on solid principals. And I think this idea is based on solid principals, one that every country in Europe basis its principals on already: keep cup football separate from league football. The only radical change is bringing a league approach to Europe, where it had traditionally been cup, and is now sort of a hybrid; this idea allows for both to exist separate from each other like the FA Cup and the Premier League already are.

[Number 9]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

I never said that people couldn't disagree, its just an idea FFS. Not like I called anybody a or anything.  I think almost everyone would agree with the statement "The Champions League is not perfect" so its not out of the question to come up with different proposals.  I put it far away from the normal discussion so as not to disturb anyone that didn't want to read it.

My point about the song was to try and stop the minorities of both fan bases from mocking the dead. Maybe if they could see just how many other people disagree with them, and the length that they are willing to go to show it, it would stop them from saying such things. doesn't have to be a song, it was just a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with looking and proactive solutions to get that level of hatred and disrespect out of football chants.

You are trying to change things ..we like tradition,it was bad enough when the European cup became the Champions League!!
Apply it in USA soccer schools..but here?..I love our football culture the way it is.All good intentions Joe im sure.

If you want to re schedule anything..re schedule what you think about while you cr@p and realize theres better sense going down the toilet than in your head!

No thanks

traditions are good and important if they are based on solid principals. And I think this idea is based on solid principals, one that every country in Europe basis its principals on already: keep cup football separate from league football. The only radical change is bringing a league approach to Europe, where it had traditionally been cup, and is now sort of a hybrid; this idea allows for both to exist separate from each other like the FA Cup and the Premier League already are.

HYBRID!!

Key word!!

[JoeTerp]

I come up with crazy ideas about football all the time; either in the shower or on the toilet or in my dreams.  I figure some out of the way place like the worldwide thread would be the ideal place to stash them as my ideas tend to haunt me unless I write them down.

Fuc'king hell like..if its not broke dont fix it!

Joe keep your shi'tting and showering things to yourself lad,as for the dreaming..fair enough!

All sh,ite ideas..Im sorry but i dont buy any of them nor see the point in any of them..You really frustrate me at times cause you are obviously a really decent guy!!
But the other day you said about UTD and LFC supporters making a song up to drown out unsavoury chants..but you dont understand...Id rather butt fu,ck the Eiffel tower than sing anything with a scum fan together(apart from the queen)

Why cant Americans just let us be..I mean they have the rest of the world up alone..and still keep on trying!

Now Joe is sharing his shi'tting fantasies with us trying to modernize the game...One american trying to change everything..like a modern day Martin Luther King?

We dont need change or revolution or anything from 3000 miles away..we have it sussed!We lead the way..you?Watch and follow!!

I never said that people couldn't disagree, its just an idea FFS. Not like I called anybody a or anything.  I think almost everyone would agree with the statement "The Champions League is not perfect" so its not out of the question to come up with different proposals.  I put it far away from the normal discussion so as not to disturb anyone that didn't want to read it.

My point about the song was to try and stop the minorities of both fan bases from mocking the dead. Maybe if they could see just how many other people disagree with them, and the length that they are willing to go to show it, it would stop them from saying such things. doesn't have to be a song, it was just a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with looking and proactive solutions to get that level of hatred and disrespect out of football chants.

You are trying to change things ..we like tradition,it was bad enough when the European cup became the Champions League!!
Apply it in USA soccer schools..but here?..I love our football culture the way it is.All good intentions Joe im sure.

If you want to re schedule anything..re schedule what you think about while you cr@p and realize theres better sense going down the toilet than in your head!

No thanks

traditions are good and important if they are based on solid principals. And I think this idea is based on solid principals, one that every country in Europe basis its principals on already: keep cup football separate from league football. The only radical change is bringing a league approach to Europe, where it had traditionally been cup, and is now sort of a hybrid; this idea allows for both to exist separate from each other like the FA Cup and the Premier League already are.

HYBRID!!

Key word!!

are you reading what I am writing?

the CURRENT CL FORMAT IS A HYBRID. the "league" based group stage, and then the knockout stages.

This idea separates the two. There is a European League champion and a European Cup winner.  Just like there is a premier league winner and an FA Cup winner.

[aCe']

where u born a tw@t Baz or is it just something you've come to become ?
Lay off the guy hes just sharing his thoughts and while impractical and almost impossible to apply (money being the major issue as Sabre said), theyr interesting and quite innovative... You dont like whats being said just stop reading...

[JoeTerp]

where u born a tw@t Baz or is it just something you've come to become ?
Lay off the guy hes just sharing his thoughts and while impractical and almost impossible to apply (money being the major issue as Sabre said), theyr interesting and quite innovative... You dont like whats being said just stop reading...

well I will be the first to admit to the extremely low probability of any of my ideas, I do enjoy the challenge of solving any practicality issues, at least in theoretical terms 

Money: Clearly, would be the number one issue, and a battle on two fronts. As Sabre has pointed out, small clubs cannot afford to play all over Europe, and probably the bigger money issue is making sure the big teams are appeased financially in a somewhat similar manner that they have come accustomed to under the current CL format. I think I can take on both problems.

If you will notice, Europa League B, which is the competition that the smallest teams that are in European competition would be in, starts off with two "qualifying" playoff rounds.
Current Europa League Format

The qualifying in my idea is not all that different from the current format. The main changes are that there are fewer rounds of qualifying, and that all teams enter at the same stage. In a way, it is kinder to the smaller teams because they are only asked to travel twice before moving on the "competition proper"

Under the current format. A team in the new Europa League that enters in the first round, like Rosenborg, would have to play 23 matches to win the Cup. This new format changes that number to 10 for the B division, (although the majority will still only play 2 or 4, but that is no different from what is already in place)


As far as making money for the big clubs, I think this new format could be more attractive because there would be lower variability. I would imagine the pay structure to be something like having all the money generated from all four divisions pooled, and then split up on a similar level to how premier league tv is split where everybody gets a lot, but you get more for finishing higher and playing in the higher league. I would imagine the total ratings over the whole year would be much higher under this format because every match-up would be a heavyweight bout.


I imagine the scheduling could look something like (a million times harder than I thought):
Monday: Europa League A (8 matches), Europa League B (8 matches)
Tuesday: CL A (2), CL B (3), CL C (2), CL D (3)  ((10)) matches
Wednesday: CL A (3), CL B (2), CL C (3), CL D (2) ((10)) matches
Thursday: Europa League A (16 matches)
Friday:  Europa League A (8 matches), Europa League B (8 matches)

then take a week off for domestic league/cup matches or rest

after matchday 6, the number of matches per week slows down for the Europa Leagues, but the frequency of matchweeks cannot slow down for the CL in order to fit in all the games. In order to play 18 games, the competition would have to start in mid August and play matches every other week until the end of May, giving a 2-3 week break from Europe around Christmas

[Judge]

Visual (given a few years for teams to move their way up/down the ladder)
CL A:
Liverpool
Manchester United
Chelsea
Barcelona
Real Madrid
AC Milan
Inter Milan
Juventus
Bayern Munich
Lyon

CL B:
Arsenal
Man City
Aston Villa
Sevilla
Valencia
Atletico Madrid
Roma
Fiorentina
Wolfsburg
Stuttgart

CL C:
Genoa
Udinese
Villareal
Marseilles
Bordeaux
Tottenham
Everton
Hertha Berlin
Werder Bremen
Deportivo La Coruna

CL D:
SPorting Lisbon
Panathinaikos
Porto
PSV
Celtic Rangers
Shakhtar Donetsk
Lazio
Dynamo Kyiv
Zenit St. Petersburg
Hamburg


Europa League A

Group 1
Napoli
West Ham
Borussia Dortmund
Paris St. Germain

Group 2
Fenerbahçe
Benfica
CSKA Moscow
Mallorca

Group 3
Fulham
Ajax
Galatasaray
Slavia Prague

Group 4
FC Twente
Schalke
Standard Liège
Red Star Belgrade

group  5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 same kinda deal (those are probably "strong looking" groups as I would think each group would probably have teams more along the lines of Levski Sofia


Europa League B: the top 2 teams from each country that are not already in one of the other leagues. For a country that is really small, this is essentially going to be the league winners and runners up. for a big country this could be the 11th or 12th best team. Theoretically it could be the 16th and 17th best team from England that qualifies, but that would be very unlikely imo.



It is a system designed to let us know where exactly all the teams stand in relation to the others. How deep is the talent outside the top 4 in the premiership? how deep is the talent outside the top 8?  How good or how bad are Panathinaikos? We know they aren't as good as Arsenal, but are they better than West Ham or Stoke? Now we can know.  Also there would never be the statement at the CL winner was merely a "cup team"

Chelsea with almost f'uck all european history should start in the europa league

[JoeTerp]

Visual (given a few years for teams to move their way up/down the ladder)
CL A:
Liverpool
Manchester United
Chelsea
Barcelona
Real Madrid
AC Milan
Inter Milan
Juventus
Bayern Munich
Lyon

Chelsea with almost f'uck all european history should start in the europa league

although my original assumption would be to do the original league placements based on the 5 year coefficients that UEFA already use to seed teams, I would be open to the idea of using an all Time European record of results. But I did say that the visual was after a few seasons of promotion/relegation so sadly its likely that Chelsea would reach that high of a level.

I think that there should also be a rule that you have to play in your country's top division in order to play in European League system