Posted:
Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:47 pm
by god_bless_john_houlding
Bammo wrote:To those people saying the other players should have had a go too, are you mad??? Passion's brilliant but would you all be applauding Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Reina etc if they'd all sprinted up to Bennet, called him a cunt and been sent off. Right or not, the derby would be fun without all our best players wouldn't it?
Spot on there mate. I've said this meself, if Gerrard had complained to Bennett and got himself booked for complaining then get another booking for some silly foul everyone would be blaming Gerrard for getting involved with the ref when it had nothing to do with him.
People for some reason are looking to blame anyone other than the man who was in the wrong.
Posted:
Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:01 pm
by LFC2007
What a shit game, it could hardly have turned out to be more disappointing. Thank f*ck we've got the derby next weekend to put things right.
First off, the Mascherano incident, and my take.
Mascherano was unquestionably in the wrong to badger Bennett on a number of occasions, (because) you just can't do that with Bennett, he's a known tw@t who has a very low tolerance threshold to any hint of a player undermining his authority. A threshold much lower than most other ref's.
I could sense Mascherano was about to get a second yellow at some point, because of the way he was going on and his body language, and that it was Mr Bennett of course. I was hoping we could make it to half time and re-assess, because of this and because we hadn't settled into a rhythm on the playing side of things.
I thought the ref made a poor decision in sending him off, in that, the actual incident didn't warrant a yellow, and the ref didn't communicate to either i) The Captain, or ii) The Manager, beforehand to warn them that he may take serious action if the badgering continued. It's one of the biggest fixtures in the footballing calendar and the ref has a responsibility to the fans at the stadium, and those watching on TV to ensure that it flows as best as possible. If he'd had a word with Rafa or Gerrard, or even Carragher and told either: 'look, any more nonsense from Mascherano and he's off', or preferrably in a more subtle way 'I'm trying my best to keep the game flowing, I don't want to be forced into sending anyone off', he would then have had full justification to go and give Mascherano the second yellow - if he persisted with the swearing afterwards. It doesn't have to be so authoritarian and this is where the disconnect appears. The key is effective communication. If Mascherano was unwilling accept the ref as a figure of authority, he'd have surely accepted the words of Rafa as binding to his behaviour. If not then he can justify that he's done everything in his power to keep the game flowing. Bennett is a stubborn f*cker though, and he doesn't communicate properly with the players. If you take the 'I'm the dog's bollocks and what I say goes attitude' as a ref (Bennett is of this sort), you encourage a divide between the officials and players that entices inflammatory behaviour. If, for example, Howard Webb or Mark Clattenburg had been ref'ing the match, they probably would have taken a more consensual approach and I don't think he'd have gone. In games of such magnitude, you can expect tempers to flare, and players to be aggrieved even more so. As a ref you have to adapt to these circumstance and do everything possible in order to make the game flow. Bennett didn't do that yesterday.
As for the game, although it's difficult to analyse it because of the sending off, I thought the gulf in class was evident even before the sending off.
We looked very edgy from the off, our passing was sloppy and we couldn't settle into our game. Skrtel and Reina were at fault for the opening goal. Skrtel had to be more aware, he needed to spot the danger whilst Rooney was retrieving the ball, then quickly set himself for the defensive header away. He was static because he hadn't anticipated the threat, you need to be driving the ball away with the header and that means positioning yourself in anticipation of the threat. Reina shouldn't have come out, and he was mainly at fault IMO because he probably would have saved it but for his foray into no man's land. Unless you're 100% certain you can get there you don't venture out, it's as simple as that.
In terms of the formation, you can't really make a firm appraisal of it given the sending off. I think Riise might have been better served playing on the left instead of Babel. He (Babel) needs a fair portion of space to be effective and although he had one run into the box, he was largely anonymous throughout. We needed an outlet at times, even if it was just to retain possession for a bit longer, and at least a natural left footer would've given us that. Overall, they were more dynamic, and for our Torres they had Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs and Evra bombing one, with Nani and Tevez on the bench. The skill, along with the pace and power of these players told. Scholes may be getting on but he was also very lively as was Anderson, who was excellent.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:01 am
by god_bless_john_houlding
Mick I agree with playing as a team but I don't think surrounding the ref is the right way to go about things. I've seen numerous people complain about Chelsea and how they intimidate refs because of Terry moaning. Is that the way you want us to carry on?
I personally don't. I'd rather see us accept whatever decision a ref makes or go over and talk to him calmly. Not carry on with foul language and hound him like a mob. A ref is more likely to be lenient with us if we accept his decisions. Mascheranho would of been on the pitch till half time if he didn't go and protest. I take your point about the rest of the team, if they'd been there supporting him then he wouldn't of got sent off, but it was our free kick so I didn't see the point in moaning anyway. Bennett was never going to call Ferdinand back just because Torres and then Mascheranho chirpped away at him. Our free kick and we resulted in a booking and a red card
Refs all stick together as well, so now not only will Bennett have it in for Mascheranho for future games so will the rest of the men in black. So Mascheranho has put himself at risk and the side because he lost his head. I don't call that passion, I call that sheer stupidity.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:11 am
by god_bless_john_houlding
Bammo wrote:What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.
This came up on you're on sky sports with Perry Groves on Saturday, don't know if anybody saw it or not, but Groves' reasoning and to a large extent I agree with him was miccing the refs up wouldn't help so much because actions speak louder than words anyway. You can see what players feel anyway with the actions and they make towards the officials. So I think everyone knows what's being said anyway even if not the exact words
As for the parents, well again with Perry Groves, it's parents he blames because of sunday league footy where parents are letting their kids of 8 and older carry on like Mascheranho did. He thinks if we sort grass root football out, then tomorrow's world stars won't carry on like that. That's what happens in rugby, their brought up to respect officials whereas in football kids sit there and complain even at a young age. I don't know how we can cut it out of premiership football right now and I was speaking to me lad about it last night and we both agreed that fining them doesn't hurt them because of the money they make anyway. Losing out on a couple of weeks wages wouldn't affect say Ashley Cole, so I don't know how modern day top flight footballers would be affected, but if we can sort grass root football out, then the future may be brighter.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:20 am
by redrover
ferguson is nausiating. "dissent is dissent". oh right so what would you have him do sir b.ollix bite his tongue and ring up the referees boss that night and give him a b.ollicking down the phone ? hypocritical blue nose alcholic b.astard. sorry lads talk on
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:46 am
by god_bless_john_houlding
Raj_Xedos wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bammo wrote:What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.
This came up on you're on sky sports with Perry Groves on Saturday, don't know if anybody saw it or not, but Groves' reasoning and to a large extent I agree with him was miccing the refs up wouldn't help so much because actions speak louder than words anyway. You can see what players feel anyway with the actions and they make towards the officials. So I think everyone knows what's being said anyway even if not the exact words
As for the parents, well again with Perry Groves, it's parents he blames because of sunday league footy where parents are letting their kids of 8 and older carry on like Mascheranho did. He thinks if we sort grass root football out, then tomorrow's world stars won't carry on like that. That's what happens in rugby, their brought up to respect officials whereas in football kids sit there and complain even at a young age. I don't know how we can cut it out of premiership football right now and I was speaking to me lad about it last night and we both agreed that fining them doesn't hurt them because of the money they make anyway. Losing out on a couple of weeks wages wouldn't affect say Ashley Cole, so I don't know how modern day top flight footballers would be affected, but if we can sort grass root football out, then the future may be brighter.
so what your saying is that lets take all the passion out of football.
tell you what, lets have no tackling, no talking and while we're there lets take the crowds out aswell....
its comments like that ruin the game of football....actions speak louder than words!
Masch had every right to ask the ref 'what happened'? Maybe masch apprciates torres's english isnt the best and questioned why he got the card.
no I'm not saying lets take passion out of the game, I'm saying I don't think micing a ref up would be a good idea and I'm saying that respect must be given to and from officials.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:07 am
by NANNY RED
Anyone remember when Ellery was miked up and Tony Adams let him have it Cheat he called him
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:26 am
by god_bless_john_houlding
david ellery was a ref.
best ref incident though was Paul Allcock being pushed over by Paulo Di Canio