Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:50 pm
It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!
MwahahahaHahaha. Not true.
Size of words does matter.
Liverpool Football Club Discussion
https://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/
https://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/liverpool-fc-forum/formations-player-roles-t21050-45.html
It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!
Bad Bob wrote:It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!
Bad Bob wrote:Scottbot wrote:Bad Bob wrote:FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides. I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).
I'd go along with that and am interested to hear Lando's (if you've sobered up yet Lando!) thoughts on why (and how) a 3-5-2 would/could be the way forward.
A 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation does seem the way to go if we were to move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 and Rafa clearly likes to play this way from his days at Valencia and also during his first 1 and a 1/2 seasons at LFC. Considering they have won 2 consecutive championships playing this way, it makes sense to look at Chelsea's 4-3-3 as the benchmark and see where we fall short. As soon as you do this it's completely obvious where we are lacking.
Starting with the frontman, Crouch would seem to be the obvious candidate to play as a lone striker but for me he is a sitting duck when he plays alone. While he can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal his natural game is to drop deeper and come looking for the ball. I don't think he is mobile enough for the role and we saw in some of the big games last season when Rafa adopted a 4-5-1 the likes of Terry and Carvallo looked pretty comfortable looking after Crouch. And if you look at Drogba the guy is an absolute brute of a forward. I rated him long before this season (despite some comedy misses during his first 2 years) because of his sheer physical prescence, no little pace and more than enough skill. He is an absolute handful for BOTH centre-backs to deal with and is the best lone frontman in world football bar none.
Then we come to the wingers. Duff and Robben (and to a lesser extent Cole) at their best during Chelsea's first title season were absolutely unstoppable. Both very quick, technically very good, a goal threat and most importantly they can both dribble with the ball at speed and that scares fullbacks sh.i.tless. We don't have anyone in the team that can do it. Even Kewell who was excellent last season cannot offer these qualities. For all his attributes Kewell seems to have lost a step (no doubt due to the numerous injuries) and has subsequently (and to his credit) become a more intelligent player but he doesn't attack players the he did at Leeds anymore. He doesn't scare teams like Robben and Duff did during that 1st season. Plus, if you have wingers that can run at (and past) people your lone frontman will receive less attention from the 2 centre-halves. Untill we go and get ourselves a Ribery or a Queresma or perhaps a Duff then it's unlikely (for me) that Rafa could make 4-3-3 work on a regular basis. Could Pennant do a job as one of the wingers? I'm not sure he is quite up to the job but there's no doubt that he has stepped up his game just lately and he seems to be playing with more confidence so we will have to wait and see on that front.
Good post Scott. I'd agree with all of that and that's why I think it's so vital that we sign a top class wide man for each wing this summer (with Pennant and Kewell as back-ups). A class striker's on the wish list, too, don't get me wrong--but true quality on the flanks would improve our all-round attacking play exponentially. We need someone of the calibre of Ronaldo or Robben running the touchline for us!
Stu.Murph wrote:Bad Bob wrote:It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!
Is that what ya missus tells you?
Bad Bob wrote:Stu.Murph wrote:Bad Bob wrote:It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!
Is that what ya missus tells you?
No need to be supercilious, Stuart!
stmichael wrote:I'll say it time and time again, remember the Valencia team Rafa used to manage? He used a 4-2-2-1-1 formation. With Albelda+Baraja in DM/CM roles with a RM in Rufete, LM with Vicente and Aimar behind the lone striker... i believe we could do this with Alonso+masch, RM Pennant, LM Gonzalez and Gerrard behind the lone striker. Also Mourinho likes to use this formation but instead of using RM/LM, he uses the wing system to support the lone striker.
During his days at Porto, he used to have Constinha and Maniche in the DM/CM role and his first two seasons at Chelsea he had Makelele and Essien in that position behind Lampard and Drogba with Robben and Joe cole on both wings... it's really quite an effective system to use. But then again knowing Rafa, he likes to have different formations against different teams. And the fact that he wanted to sign Simao was for the reason of using him on the RM/LM and behind the lone striker role just like Garcia.
That Valencia side was so well-built. The pieces just fit together. If we compare, I think the player we're missing is Aimar, who played in front of two CMs (Albelda-Baraja). The closest we have is Garcia, but he's of course out. Don't think Gerrard is suited to the central position behind a striker. I'd say he's our Baraja or perhaps Rufete.
Simao would be able to play all those three positions LM, AM, RM, but I reckon he'd be used at LM/RM almost all the time.
Mourinho uses either 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield. So he has three CMs, one defensive behind two CMs in both systems. He then alternates between a central attacking midfielder + two strikers and two wingers + a lone striker.
Simple really
Stu.Murph wrote:Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!
red37 wrote:Stu.Murph wrote:Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!
Not being obtuse or anything...but can you expand on that statement. Ive seen Gerrard do most things well enough on the park. Its not beyond his game though is it. Agreed the lad is best deployed deeper up the pitch than playing in the 'hole'. But id like to genuinely hear the reasons why you say 'never ever' stu.
The purpose of this thread is made for such observations and its interesting to hear all your thoughts. (and no more fancy words please...you'll have Baz in here again)
RedBlood wrote:gerrard's best position is centre midfeild running a game but he can do a very very good job in the aimar position as well as right midfield
Stu.Murph wrote:red37 wrote:Stu.Murph wrote:Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!
Not being obtuse or anything...but can you expand on that statement. Ive seen Gerrard do most things well enough on the park. Its not beyond his game though is it. Agreed the lad is best deployed deeper up the pitch than playing in the 'hole'. But id like to genuinely hear the reasons why you say 'never ever' stu.
The purpose of this thread is made for such observations and its interesting to hear all your thoughts. (and no more fancy words please...you'll have Baz in here again)
He offers to much defensively and is better coming from a deeper position. Simple as that. Why have one of the worlds best tacklers in an attack position?
Gerrard is overated in an attacking sense. I hear people talking about him like he's a Zidane or something. Gerrard isn't as skillful and as technical a player as Scholes is, let alone Zidane. He's not got Scholes' intelligence either. Both are natural midfielders. They both do different things from the middle of the park, weather its the right side or the centre for Steven.
He's a box to box ball winning driving force basically. He's more physical than creative. I'm not saying he can't create, he clearly can, but its not his main strength.
His best attributes are long distance shooting, stamina, aggression, leadership, work rate and tackling.
His worst attributes (although he's very good at these) are his decision making, vision/invention, ball control, short passing and movement. Now like I said, he's very good in these area's, but he's not great, he needs to be in a position which gets the best out of all his main attributes aswell as allowing him to do everything. That position is midfield, either right or central.
People used to say playing him in the "holding role" takes away 50% of his game... he should play in attacking role...
Which is rubbish, because you're taking away the other 50% of his game by doing that.
He's an alrounder, not a specialist in the hole player.