Liverpool FC Forum

by **Raj_Xedos** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:55 am

I like the way fat sam said that rafa just had to leave it....

whats his problem anyway, Rafa aint said anythin to him has he??

by **Sabre** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:37 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:It’s going to end up in a heated exchange of words between the pair and this is not the first time a confrontation between the pair has come to light. Secondly, you’re no doubt correct, but how many posters on here would be in “Rafa cannot be criticised” camp and how many people would be branded Rafa a tactical genius had Liverpool not had the recent dominance?

Your post makes very little sense, however, nobody on this forum to my knowledge is in the 'Rafa cannot be criticised' camp.

I don't get Wilhemsson's point. I love Rafa for what he has done at Liverpool, 2 CL finals (this is not easy), 1 FA cup, some minor trophies, and making dream the fans about the premiership.

Another thing I like of Rafa is that he transmits ambition and a serious project. 5 years ago, the likes of Owen were in their way out of the club, and fans were worried because Gerrard might leave the club. Now, players like Gerrard want to stay because they really feel it's a winner club, and important players like Torres want to join this club instead of others they don't even consider.

If he didn't do all this, of course I wouldn't be as supportive to him!! he'd be an Ex Valencia and Ex Real Madrid (2 teams I hate) cúnt that didn't make it in Liverpool!

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:32 pm

My point is that if Rafa didn’t guide Liverpool to two CL finals, how many Liverpool fans would be calling him the Messiah of the Mersey and how many fans would defend him tooth and nail?

Big Sam has a point, take away the recent success in Europe and Rafa’s tenure doesn’t look as stunningly spectacular and I wonder how many people would be quick to defend Benitez to the death?

Sabre, you’re last two points sum up what I have said, I was just interested to know that’s all, I think I have gotten my answers from one of Rafa’s defenders.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:41 pm

Big Sam has a point, take away the recent success in Europe and Rafa’s tenure doesn’t look as stunningly spectacular and I wonder how many people would be quick to defend Benitez to the death?

You can't do that though.

This whole idea of judging someone once something they've done is "taken away".

By this logic one could say "OK, look at Shakespeare, other than writing some of the great works of the English language, what did he really do?"

Rafa's accomplishments cannot be taken away and any judgement made on him MUST take them into account.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:44 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:My point is that if Rafa didn’t guide Liverpool to two CL finals, how many Liverpool fans would be calling him the Messiah of the Mersey and how many fans would defend him tooth and nail?

Big Sam has a point, take away the recent success in Europe and Rafa’s tenure doesn’t look as stunningly spectacular and I wonder how many people would be quick to defend Benitez to the death?

Sabre, you’re last two points sum up what I have said, I was just interested to know that’s all, I think I have gotten my answers from one of Rafa’s defenders.

Point is, that he did accomplish those things though. As a few have said, Ferguson would be considered a rubbish manager had he not won all of those titles with United. And Allerdyce would be considered a genius if he'd led Bolton to the quadruple last season. The bottom line is that Sam can posit as many 'counter factuals' (as historians call them) as he'd like. At the end of the day, Rafa's put major silverware in the Anfield trophy cabinet and that's the measure of a good manager.

by **The_Rock** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:59 pm

Sabre wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:It’s going to end up in a heated exchange of words between the pair and this is not the first time a confrontation between the pair has come to light. Secondly, you’re no doubt correct, but how many posters on here would be in “Rafa cannot be criticised” camp and how many people would be branded Rafa a tactical genius had Liverpool not had the recent dominance?

Your post makes very little sense, however, nobody on this forum to my knowledge is in the 'Rafa cannot be criticised' camp.

I don't get Wilhemsson's point. I love Rafa for what he has done at Liverpool, 2 CL finals (this is not easy), 1 FA cup, some minor trophies, and making dream the fans about the premiership.

Another thing I like of Rafa is that he transmits ambition and a serious project. 5 years ago, the likes of Owen were in their way out of the club, and fans were worried because Gerrard might leave the club. Now, players like Gerrard want to stay because they really feel it's a winner club, and important players like Torres want to join this club instead of others they don't even consider.

If he didn't do all this, of course I wouldn't be as supportive to him!! he'd be an Ex Valencia and Ex Real Madrid (2 teams I hate) cúnt that didn't make it in Liverpool!

U make it sound like it's solely because of rafa that LFC are an attractive club for players.....

I disagree.....Liverpool were always an attractive club for players. Jari Litmanen joined us during houllier time. Stan Collymore was the most coveted english striker and he joined us during roys evans time. During hollier's treble year we were ranked as the number 1 club in the world by soccernet....Liverpool were always a big club....

But don't get me wrong...Rafa will always be a legend for winning NO 5. But lets not kid ourselves that Rafa is the reason why top players are joining or not wanting to leave us....

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:06 pm

The Manhattan Project wrote:
Big Sam has a point, take away the recent success in Europe and Rafa’s tenure doesn’t look as stunningly spectacular and I wonder how many people would be quick to defend Benitez to the death?

You can't do that though.

This whole idea of judging someone once something they've done is "taken away".

By this logic one could say "OK, look at Shakespeare, other than writing some of the great works of the English language, what did he really do?"

Rafa's accomplishments cannot be taken away and any judgement made on him MUST take them into account.

You can do it, I did it earlier. The point I’m making is that Rafa’s success in Europe has secured his position as manager, had Rafa not guided Liverpool to recent successes then I doubt half the people who defend him tooth and nail would be so dogmatic in their defence.

I’m not sure this discussion is worth having as the matter is a trivial one, I was just interested in what people would say and no one has said much.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:37 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:The point I’m making is that Rafa’s success in Europe has secured his position as manager, had Rafa not guided Liverpool to recent successes then I doubt half the people who defend him tooth and nail would be so dogmatic in their defence.

You're right, of course, but it's not exactly a brave prediction is it? After all, it's equally valid to say that if Rafa had led us to three league titles by now while rotating the squad every week there would be no dogmatic 'anti-rotationalists' amongst us. Point is, he's brought enough success to convince some amongst us to defend his methods vigorously while still falling short enough times to leave others of us questioning those same methods. How any of this has any bearing on Sam Allardyce's decision to stick the boot in out of the blue is beyond me, however?

by **Kharhaz** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:50 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:I’m not sure this discussion is worth having as the matter is a trivial one, I was just interested in what people would say and no one has said much.

Nobody has said much because what is there to say? Fact is he has won trophies and like rafa said, hes qualified for the champions league each season hes been here. Facts speak for themself.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:01 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:My point is that if Rafa didn’t guide Liverpool to two CL finals, how many Liverpool fans would be calling him the Messiah of the Mersey and how many fans would defend him tooth and nail?

Big Sam has a point, take away the recent success in Europe and Rafa’s tenure doesn’t look as stunningly spectacular and I wonder how many people would be quick to defend Benitez to the death?

Sabre, you’re last two points sum up what I have said, I was just interested to know that’s all, I think I have gotten my answers from one of Rafa’s defenders.

Had Ferguson not beaten Forest in the third round of the FA cup 17 years ago, he may have been sacked.

It's a dead end argument.

Allardyce has no point, he is merely trying to stir the sh!t.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:01 pm

While Rafa hasn't won the league it isn't as if he spent £200m in the process. He's had money but he's finishing behind two teams that have spent more - Ferdinand £30m, Rooney £25m, Hargreaves £17m, Carrick £18m, Nani and Anderson £30m combined or Drogba £25m, Essien £25m, SWP £21m, Shevchenko £30m etc etc.

Had Mourinho not landed the league then the European Cup shouldn't have saved him either. And there's some manc fan who claimed he didn't need to "defend Mourinho" basing it on what he did at Porto. He didn't spend millions at Porto and he hasn't repeated the European Cup success despite a much much bigger budget and squadload of multimillion pound players. While Rafa has won the same number of European Cups he's reached two finals and we didn't get to play Monaco in either final. In fact Porto had a relatively easy ride with Monaco in the final, Deportivo in the semi and Lyon in the QFs. Monaco knocked out Real Madrid and Chelsea while Deportivo did Porto the favouring of dumping out Milan

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:02 pm

You can do it, I did it earlier.

"You can't do it" in the context of using a logical basis for an argument, not the actual act of writing and posting the message.

The point I’m making is that Rafa’s success in Europe has secured his position as manager, had Rafa not guided Liverpool to recent successes then I doubt half the people who defend him tooth and nail would be so dogmatic in their defence.

But he DID guide them to recent successes, so the point does not apply.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:09 pm

I accept that, but I know deep down that Big Sam is right, Rafa can be thankful he has European Competition mastered to the tenth degree. I know that there would be the same criticisms of Benitez which scathed Houllier had Rafa not have had the success he has done.

I don’t buy into, standing behind the manager and team through thick and thin because in reality only a small proportion of football fans actually do this.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:16 pm

I don't support blind faith either, but my problem is that Allardyce has simply initiated this spat for no reason. He accused Rafa of "dishing it out and not being able to take it" but Rafa didn't dish it out. I don't recall him saying anything about Allardyce. Also, if Allardyce is such an expert on how to win the Premiership, then why hasn't he done it. It's actually Sam who's under the pressure to deliver something at a "bigger club". Bolton's own tactics over the years have attracted massive criticism and at best have got a fifth or sixth. Negative football consisting of defence and hoofing. Now if Arsene Wenger offered some advice regarding Premiership winning strategies, THEN I'd listen.

The only thing I like about the Moyes/Allardyce ilk is that they buy "steel" players, legcrunchers who can get stuck in when we need to play dirty against similar hardmen teams. When faced with teams like Everton and Bolton away etc...the "flair" players we have may not be strong enough to cope.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:22 pm

Anyone see him on SKY sports 1 today before the game, the interviewer asked him about Owen and his injuries and said if you would have been his manager for the past 8 years would he have been injured that much?

Silly b@stard said no he would'nt have got all them injuries under me, we have been analyzing the other clubs he has been at we would have done thing differently with him.
And we have the best equipment here to avoid him being injured further.

Fast forward 90 mins later Owen groin injury.

Liverpool FC Forum

Fat sam - Proves fat guys are funny

Who is online