Liverpool FC Forum

by **Scottbot** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:37 am

Bad Bob wrote:I've just had a chance to see the whole match between Spain and Greece and Alonso certainly ran the show. As the match progressed I couldn't help but think that Big Mick has been spot on with his idea that Xabi could do much more damage playing just a little further forward.

I'm a bit late to this debate but I wouldn't buy too much into Alonso's performance for Spain against Greece. He's a class act but there is little point watching an international and then expecting to see the same performance for us particularly when you compare the way Spain plays to our own style. We couldn't play more differently if we tried. Spain play at a VERY slow tempo and i'd say they keep the ball better than ANY team in world football right now. They are not a team you can really hurry and press and with the pace of Torres and Villa up front you could be crazy to go right at them (as Russia found out in game 1). So the only way to play them is to sit deep, be patient and hit them on the break. Because of this Xabi will have a field day every time he plays for Spain, he'll see a lot of the ball and he won't hear many footsteps until he is way past the halfway line, although unfortunately for him Aragones prefers the industry and artistry of Senna and Xavi. This doesn't really happen for him in English football.

by **Sabre** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:14 pm

S@int: You forgot to mention that you can close him down with a forward, and probably is troublesome in the dressroom and has fall outs with Gerrard. 6-9 M would be a reasonable price.

Scott, it's summer, it's never late for the debate this months.

Because of this Xabi will have a field day every time he plays for Spain, he'll see a lot of the ball and he won't hear many footsteps until he is way past the halfway line,

In some games of Liverpool, especially against small teams that sit deep, which ended up in frustrating draws, rather than team selection, I thought we lacked the patience to break them down to explain why we didn't.

Sometimes we could use better our, mark my words, TOTALLY CAPABLE MIDFIELD PLAYERS TO PLAY POSSESSION FOOTBALL, rather than trying to end up the play soon and fast, give, and go. Sometimes it's about passing and giving time to other players to add up to the attack. We fail in this kind of decissions especially against small teams. When the weekend approaches, I sometimes fear more a Birmingham than a Tottenham, even if they're smaller, because I don't like how we attack those deep teams.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:58 pm

Sometimes we could use better our, mark my words, TOTALLY CAPABLE MIDFIELD PLAYERS TO PLAY POSSESSION FOOTBALL, rather than trying to end up the play soon and fast, give, and go. Sometimes it's about passing and giving time to other players to add up to the attack. We fail in this kind of decissions especially against small teams. When the weekend approaches, I sometimes fear more a Birmingham than a Tottenham, even if they're smaller, because I don't like how we attack those deep teams.

Is this to justify keeping Alonso ?

Joking aside I see what your saying and I agree with it, I to usually get the feeling when playing teams like Birmingham. 'Are we gonna be able to break them down' and watching us go about it is frustrating at times. There certainly are times in a match when we could put our foot on the ball and string 20 odd passes around and make the build up more patient, Xabi could help with this. But I dont think its the crux of the problem TBH, teams like Birmingham who come well drilled to Anfield, or even United I think would love us to build up our play in a more patient fashion (like the Liverpool of old did). This enables teams to get numbers back re-organise themselves and just sit deep.

And this is where we're found wanting more IMO, we dont have the players to unlock a defence in any given moment we used to be more patient when we had players like Barnes and Beardlsey, they could be part of a build up, that entailed possesion football because they were clever players and had the ability to turn a game on its head. Of course we have Gerrard who is certainly capable of this and Torres to bang them in. But we shouldnt be so reliant on those two to unlock a stubborn defence. Our wide players are not creative or jinky enough to do this. And its useless playing Possesion football IMO with players like Kuyt out wide and Babel, who dont work all that well it tight spaces, and in Kuyts instance go pass a defender or two. A deep defence IMO will snuff players like them out easier, and by playing the way we do, on the break or "quick" football gives them the time and space to do something and plays to their strengths more.

We could do with mixing it up a little more though, it would be nice to see us change the tempo of the game. And try a different approach to our build up play. But you also need the players with real technical ability out wide (not just out wide, but this is where wh need to improve) to help this style work better and the mentality, which of course will come from the manager to encourage them to play possesion football.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:32 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Sometimes we could use better our, mark my words, TOTALLY CAPABLE MIDFIELD PLAYERS TO PLAY POSSESSION FOOTBALL, rather than trying to end up the play soon and fast, give, and go. Sometimes it's about passing and giving time to other players to add up to the attack. We fail in this kind of decissions especially against small teams. When the weekend approaches, I sometimes fear more a Birmingham than a Tottenham, even if they're smaller, because I don't like how we attack those deep teams.

Is this to justify keeping Alonso ?

Joking aside I see what your saying and I agree with it, I to usually get the feeling when playing teams like Birmingham. 'Are we gonna be able to break them down' and watching us go about it is frustrating at times. There certainly are times in a match when we could put our foot on the ball and string 20 odd passes around and make the build up more patient, Xabi could help with this. But I dont think its the crux of the problem TBH, teams like Birmingham who come well drilled to Anfield, or even United I think would love us to build up our play in a more patient fashion (like the Liverpool of old did). This enables teams to get numbers back re-organise themselves and just sit deep.

And this is where we're found wanting more IMO, we dont have the players to unlock a defence in any given moment we used to be more patient when we had players like Barnes and Beardlsey, they could be part of a build up, that entailed possesion football because they were clever players and had the ability to turn a game on its head. Of course we have Gerrard who is certainly capable of this and Torres to bang them in. But we shouldnt be so reliant on those two to unlock a stubborn defence. Our wide players are not creative or jinky enough to do this. And its useless playing Possesion football IMO with players like Kuyt out wide and Babel, who dont work all that well it tight spaces, and in Kuyts instance go pass a defender or two. A deep defence IMO will snuff players like them out easier, and by playing the way we do, on the break or "quick" football gives them the time and space to do something and plays to their strengths more.

We could do with mixing it up a little more though, it would be nice to see us change the tempo of the game. And try a different approach to our build up play. But you also need the players with real technical ability out wide (not just out wide, but this is where wh need to improve) to help this style work better and the mentality, which of course will come from the manager to encourage them to play possesion football.

Good post Bamaga, while I think we would all like to see a little more patience, I don't agree with Sabre (and to an extent with you), I dont think we have the players at the moment to play a possession game.

Not only do we not have the wingers but Gerrard has always been an action type player wanting to make things happen rather than playing the safe ball.Torres is player that you want to get the ball to early anyway, to get him in one on one situations where his pace and skill will get goals.

Our defence (particularly CB) apart from Agger arn't comfortable receiving the ball, and more often than not either pass back to Reina or launch it upfield rather than playing it along the back line.

Both Kuyt and Babel have poor first touch, and as you say need space if they are to be effective.

So that leaves us with Masch......

I think if we got a top quality wide player and a creative second striker most of our problems would we solved, as we would have the best of both worlds....a quick break with Gerrard and Torres or a more patient build up with our more creative players.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:47 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Sometimes we could use better our, mark my words, TOTALLY CAPABLE MIDFIELD PLAYERS TO PLAY POSSESSION FOOTBALL, rather than trying to end up the play soon and fast, give, and go. Sometimes it's about passing and giving time to other players to add up to the attack. We fail in this kind of decissions especially against small teams. When the weekend approaches, I sometimes fear more a Birmingham than a Tottenham, even if they're smaller, because I don't like how we attack those deep teams.

Is this to justify keeping Alonso ?

Joking aside I see what your saying and I agree with it, I to usually get the feeling when playing teams like Birmingham. 'Are we gonna be able to break them down' and watching us go about it is frustrating at times. There certainly are times in a match when we could put our foot on the ball and string 20 odd passes around and make the build up more patient, Xabi could help with this. But I dont think its the crux of the problem TBH, teams like Birmingham who come well drilled to Anfield, or even United I think would love us to build up our play in a more patient fashion (like the Liverpool of old did). This enables teams to get numbers back re-organise themselves and just sit deep.

And this is where we're found wanting more IMO, we dont have the players to unlock a defence in any given moment we used to be more patient when we had players like Barnes and Beardlsey, they could be part of a build up, that entailed possesion football because they were clever players and had the ability to turn a game on its head. Of course we have Gerrard who is certainly capable of this and Torres to bang them in. But we shouldnt be so reliant on those two to unlock a stubborn defence. Our wide players are not creative or jinky enough to do this. And its useless playing Possesion football IMO with players like Kuyt out wide and Babel, who dont work all that well it tight spaces, and in Kuyts instance go pass a defender or two. A deep defence IMO will snuff players like them out easier, and by playing the way we do, on the break or "quick" football gives them the time and space to do something and plays to their strengths more.

We could do with mixing it up a little more though, it would be nice to see us change the tempo of the game. And try a different approach to our build up play. But you also need the players with real technical ability out wide (not just out wide, but this is where wh need to improve) to help this style work better and the mentality, which of course will come from the manager to encourage them to play possesion football.

It's a good point. When we struggle to break teams down it usually means that our opponents are playing for a point and are not committing bodies forward with any regularity or conviction--making them hard to catch on the break. They tend to play two compact banks of four and invite us to pass our way through them or around them. Without the quality in wide positions, however, we struggle to get around the outside of them and cause panic/indecision amongst defenders. Back when we had Gerrard on the right and an in form Kewell on the left, we were much better at breaking teams down, IMO. Babel has the raw potential to cause some problems out wide while Kuyt, IMO, really doesn't. Hopefully Dossena and Degan will offer us a bit more adventure along the touchline to help these lads out this season.

All that said, one of the things that Alonso brings to the table in these types of matches is his ability to switch play quickly with long, accurate balls to the flanks. There's no question that he's our best consistent long-passer of the ball and the ability to switch play quickly helps us catch defenders out and allows us to get in behind. There are two requirements for this to work, though. The first is what we've already been talking about: you need decent quality in wide positions to make the runs and to do something with those raking balls. The second is that Xabi needs the time to get his head up and spot the pass in the first place, which many people feel he's just not able to get anymore because opponents have figured out that they can't afford to give him that time and space.

In part, that second one's a problem that's not easily solved. Alonso is not the most mobile player and so he doesn't find it easy to lose committed markers. That's where Mick's suggestion that he look to push further up and find pockets of space "between the lines" is a good one. In wonder, too, if he might get a bit more help from Mascherano (assuming we go 4-2-3-1) as time goes on. Masch, of course, is the quintessential defensive CM but that's not stopped him from bursting forward when space opens up. These runs usually get him into great positions but, unfortunately, his final ball/shot from distance is usually sub-par. My sense, though, was that Masch was getting a bit more dangerous with his shooting and passing as last season wore on. If he could continue to hone that craft he would oblige defenders to pay more attention to his runs and thus free up space for Alonso in behind by dragging markers away.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:50 pm

I think more important than Alonso stepping forward more, is our defenders starting to bring the ball out when Alonso is being pressured. Agger does this well, and its no surprise that Alonso's best games last season where the early ones when Agger was playing. If Dossena and Skrtel show that they can also bring the ball forward this would ease the pressure on Alonso (if he is still here), and allow him to get his head up and start making the great passes we saw in the first couple of years.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:59 am

I dont think we have the players at the moment to play a possession game.

I'd agree with that.

Not only do we not have the wingers but Gerrard has always been an action type player wanting to make things happen rather than playing the safe ball.Torres is player that you want to get the ball to early anyway, to get him in one on one situations where his pace and skill will get goals.

And that.

So in my conclusion, lets play the way we play, and not worry about changing our footballing philosophy to aid one player ..... Xabi Alonso

by **Rush Job** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:30 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Sometimes we could use better our, mark my words, TOTALLY CAPABLE MIDFIELD PLAYERS TO PLAY POSSESSION FOOTBALL, rather than trying to end up the play soon and fast, give, and go. Sometimes it's about passing and giving time to other players to add up to the attack. We fail in this kind of decissions especially against small teams. When the weekend approaches, I sometimes fear more a Birmingham than a Tottenham, even if they're smaller, because I don't like how we attack those deep teams.

Is this to justify keeping Alonso ?

Joking aside I see what your saying and I agree with it, I to usually get the feeling when playing teams like Birmingham. 'Are we gonna be able to break them down' and watching us go about it is frustrating at times. There certainly are times in a match when we could put our foot on the ball and string 20 odd passes around and make the build up more patient, Xabi could help with this. But I dont think its the crux of the problem TBH, teams like Birmingham who come well drilled to Anfield, or even United I think would love us to build up our play in a more patient fashion (like the Liverpool of old did). This enables teams to get numbers back re-organise themselves and just sit deep.

And this is where we're found wanting more IMO, we dont have the players to unlock a defence in any given moment we used to be more patient when we had players like Barnes and Beardlsey, they could be part of a build up, that entailed possesion football because they were clever players and had the ability to turn a game on its head. Of course we have Gerrard who is certainly capable of this and Torres to bang them in. But we shouldnt be so reliant on those two to unlock a stubborn defence. Our wide players are not creative or jinky enough to do this. And its useless playing Possesion football IMO with players like Kuyt out wide and Babel, who dont work all that well it tight spaces, and in Kuyts instance go pass a defender or two. A deep defence IMO will snuff players like them out easier, and by playing the way we do, on the break or "quick" football gives them the time and space to do something and plays to their strengths more.

We could do with mixing it up a little more though, it would be nice to see us change the tempo of the game. And try a different approach to our build up play. But you also need the players with real technical ability out wide (not just out wide, but this is where wh need to improve) to help this style work better and the mentality, which of course will come from the manager to encourage them to play possesion football.

It's a good point. When we struggle to break teams down it usually means that our opponents are playing for a point and are not committing bodies forward with any regularity or conviction--making them hard to catch on the break. They tend to play two compact banks of four and invite us to pass our way through them or around them. Without the quality in wide positions, however, we struggle to get around the outside of them and cause panic/indecision amongst defenders. Back when we had Gerrard on the right and an in form Kewell on the left, we were much better at breaking teams down, IMO. Babel has the raw potential to cause some problems out wide while Kuyt, IMO, really doesn't. Hopefully Dossena and Degan will offer us a bit more adventure along the touchline to help these lads out this season.

All that said, one of the things that Alonso brings to the table in these types of matches is his ability to switch play quickly with long, accurate balls to the flanks. There's no question that he's our best consistent long-passer of the ball and the ability to switch play quickly helps us catch defenders out and allows us to get in behind. There are two requirements for this to work, though. The first is what we've already been talking about: you need decent quality in wide positions to make the runs and to do something with those raking balls. The second is that Xabi needs the time to get his head up and spot the pass in the first place, which many people feel he's just not able to get anymore because opponents have figured out that they can't afford to give him that time and space.

In part, that second one's a problem that's not easily solved. Alonso is not the most mobile player and so he doesn't find it easy to lose committed markers. That's where Mick's suggestion that he look to push further up and find pockets of space "between the lines" is a good one. In wonder, too, if he might get a bit more help from Mascherano (assuming we go 4-2-3-1) as time goes on. Masch, of course, is the quintessential defensive CM but that's not stopped him from bursting forward when space opens up. These runs usually get him into great positions but, unfortunately, his final ball/shot from distance is usually sub-par. My sense, though, was that Masch was getting a bit more dangerous with his shooting and passing as last season wore on. If he could continue to hone that craft he would oblige defenders to pay more attention to his runs and thus free up space for Alonso in behind by dragging markers away.

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