Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:52 am

It seems that lots of threads are concerned with whether the manager should stay or go, which many find extremely surprising given we're second in the league. Just about the only thing which there is any concensus about, is that the next six to eight weeks could provide hugely contrasting outcomes, and make the manager either look a hero or a has been.

If we win it (The Premiership) then presumeably all debate is over. If we fall apart, a similar outcome but in the opposite sense. If as seems most likely we come up a bit short, the debate will rage on about progress, whether it's enough etc.

My feeling is though, given the fact that there is 13 games to go in the Premiership for us, it seems a bit odd to be deciding the verdict on the five year plan over such a short period of matches. What if we suddenly hit form and win it, does that mean that the plan has worked? Many will say a resounding yes, and I've no doubt they'd be in the majority. By the same token, what if Gerrard's injury gets worse, Torres breaks down and we fall apart? Does THAT necessarily mean the five year plan has failed?

Because of that, before this one is over, and before the next one begins (five year plans that is) it might be an idea to look at where we actually are in terms of squad strength. Presumeably we are going to need new players in the Summer, regardless of how we go in the next 13 matches. Presumeably we are going to need to strengthen the squad in some areas, regardless. So where are we, how good is the squad today? That's the thread opener, I'll have a go at an assessment in the next post.

I know it's been done before at different stages, but it is a constantly evolving equation and might be interesting.

by **redsince2001** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:36 am

squad is not good ............. 1st team is good

by **Effes** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:40 am

I think it's possible to win the league with this squad - but how possible? May be the question to that.

Your question of "how" good, leaves open the definition of how you want it evaluated.

Looking at the rest of the league, I'd say it was the 3rd best squad.
Leaving out managers' influence etc,(and try to quantify) I'd say the squad is 7 points off Man U, 4 points off Chelsea.
The points thing being their value over a season, and what you'd expect them to attain.
The Mancs have Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez upfront, Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka - we've got Torres.
Their defensive personnel is better as well.

Going forward - we need a striker and a right-sided player/winger for Kuyt's position in the 4-2-3-1.

by **Bam** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:47 am

The squad doesnt have enough quality, certainly not when competing for the Prem, F.A and CL. The Everton match in the FA cup proved to be a drain on our squad. Which rolled over to the Premiership game down at Fratton park, the changes made and positions played showed the squad doesnt have sufficient cover.

N'Gog for Torres :;):

Torres is obviously on a different stratosphere when it boils down to it, the gulf if class is huge. But in all honesty it shouldnt be that big, rather than having some teen from PSG who at times looks way out of his depth leading the line for Liverpool. It would be nice to see another striker or two who could come in and close that gap in class that Torres has over N'Gog.

Another goal poacher would be nice, not a grafter nor a targetman, but primarily a poacher first. For example a player like Lucas Podolski, somebody of his ilk who could share the burden of goals with Nando. A player who in those times of frustration and desperation has the instinct to kill teams off.
Then after securing a poacher, possibly a target man an option man like Crouch

who then could offer our squad adequate options and variety in our play.

In midfield we're still lacking guile and creativity, I'm not talking about you're 'Here and there players' like Yossi, Babel, Pennant, Aurelio, Dossena or even Riera to an extent. I'm talking about a nailed on starter week in week out on either the right flank or the to a lesser extent the left. A player who has the calibre that teams like Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal fans expect, the Silva's the Arshavins of this world. Due to the scattergun approach I think we've got a mediocre bunch really when talking about creativity and guile. Take Gerrard out of the squad and we near enough have Zilch. Hence the reason we've drawn too many games already this season and like last season. It would be nice see the manager spend a large wad (where, and when possible) on a player like this, then use the scattergun approach after to beef up the squad.

Arbeloa needs cover or someone to fight for his place, Glen Johnson would be my recomendation. We're light at RB and I dont think Carra is the right answer merely a stop gap. Also if I had my own way I'd flog both Dossena and Aurelio and get in a quality LB, tried and tested someone like Heinze or maybe Wayne Bridge and use Insua as cover.

There are still many positions in the team that arent covered well enough in terms of squad and quality, but can you see Rafa buying an orthodox striker, a fox in the box if you like. Can you see him adding players like Arshavin and Silva to the squad or team on a consistent basis, or even Johnson. Personally I cant, they're not industrial enough, workman like enough to fit into Rafa's pragmatic way of thinking.

Still whatever Rafa's ideal player, the squad needs more quality and depth and with Real Madrid coming up with the Mancs around the corner and with the final furlong in the league our current squad I think will be pushed to the limit.

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:51 am

Goalkeeper-First choice is Reina who is excellent. Lets assume the replacement bloke is better than he's looked so far. Let's be optimistic. Verdict- sorted .

Right Back-First choice is Arbeloa who is adequate at best. No realistic replacement. Verdict- needs attention

Left Back-First choice is Aurelio who is on the decent side of average, better than Arbeloa IMHO. Replacements are Dossena and/or Insua. Being charitable, the verdict is, sorted

Centre halves-Fist choices are currently Carragher and Skyrtel. Back ups are Hyppia and Agger. Hyppia at the very least will need replacing soon, and we possibly need someone with more aerial authority. Verdict- needs attention

Left midfield-First choice is Riera. after an excellent start, he's settled back into being decent, which is what I actually think he is. His replacement isn't though, it'sh Babel. Verdict- needs attention

Right Midfield-First choice is Kuyt. Shtop right there, verdict- needs attention

Central midfield-only doubt is whether Lucas will ever be good enough. Lets be generous and assume he will be, verdict- sorted

Strikers-First choice is Torres who needs no desription from me. Replacements are Kuyt, Egg Nog and Babel. Verdict- needs urgent attention

Now are there any newbies coming through who may provide an answer? Well El Zahr may be something on the right. I don't think he will be anytime soon in that I don't think he'd currently get a game in any other top 10 Premiership team, but you never know. A lot of people like Steven Darby, but I've never reeally seen him play so I can't really comment. I think it's unlikely though by the sounds of it that he's going to develop into an absolute top quality right back. At best, he might become a possible stand in for Arbeloa. Yossi Benayoun is one of our "options" and "possibilities" players. If we had Ronaldo at right midfield and Benayoun as his back up then fair enough. Ditto a Robert Pires at left midfield and Benayoun as back up. We don't though, so I don't see how he fits in long term.

Now I know people will say "But Pacecho's a goods player" and he probably is for all I know. I don't though think that realsitically he's about to break into the first team.

So the way I see it, after five years of the Rafalution our needs are as follows.

A right back, I would strongly recommend Glen Johnson for this role. We at the very least though need a credible back up for Arbeloa.
A first replacement centre half, or even a top class first choice one if one becomes available (I would stongly recommend Micah Richards for this role).
A first replacement left midfielder, or etc etc etc and I can't suggest one off the top of my head.
A right midfielder, can't think of one right now. Probably a first replacement as well unless the one we sign is absolutely top drawer.
At least two strikers, at least one of whom has to be able to play effectively in a 4-5-1 if Torres is unavailable.

I think I've been pretty fair and generous in my assessments. I'd be interested to know if anyone agrees or not. Two questions now. Firstly, is it reasonable to expect less gaping holes in the squad after five years of meticulous planning and the Rafalution? Two, how much money do people guess it will cost to plug these hioles in personel? I think we'll all agree it's quite a lot, and do people feel comfortable with the current manager doing the plugging given his recent exploits in the transfer market?

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:11 am

Two things are strange about this thread so far. The first one fairly obviously is that I've learnt how to put some letters in bold. It is the single most impressive thing I've learnt on the computer since I mastered how to cut and paste (obviously still some way behind that great day though).

The other thing which is odd, is that nobody has of yet come on and said "well if the squad is so sh!t how come we're second in the league and only two points behind the leaders FFS?". For extra effect they normally put one of these on the end :angry:

, and close their post with something along the lines of "this place gets fecking worse it really does".

There's still time for all that though I suppose.

by **Effes** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:14 am

bigmick wrote:The other thing which is odd, is that nobody has of yet come on and said "well if the squad is so sh!t how come we're second in the league and only two points behind the leaders FFS?". For extra effect they normally put one of these on the end , and close their post with something along the lines of "this place gets fecking worse it really does".

There's still time for all that though I suppose.

Lando mustn't be doing nights tonight Mick

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:39 am

Effes wrote:I think it's possible to win the league with this squad - but how possible? May be the question to that.

Your question of "how" good, leaves open the definition of how you want it evaluated.

Looking at the rest of the league, I'd say it was the 3rd best squad.
Leaving out managers' influence etc,(and try to quantify) I'd say the squad is 7 points off Man U, 4 points off Chelsea.
The points thing being their value over a season, and what you'd expect them to attain.
The Mancs have Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez upfront, Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka - we've got Torres.
Their defensive personnel is better as well.

Going forward - we need a striker and a right-sided player/winger for Kuyt's position in the 4-2-3-1.

you forgot chelsea has a certain Franco Di Santo whom i really rate. he is superb in the air and has great physicality. i would love to have him at our club honestly. we however only have Torres. we sold Keane. that leaves us with Ngog and Babel and Kuyt. good enough for a mid table club but not a team that wants to end their wait for a league title.

i feel our right side is sorted with Arby and Darby while left back Insua is good enough to play week in and out. Aurelio is often injured while Doss is not showing enough abilities at the moment.

central def is a worry as Agger is yet to pen a new deal and thats another area where we can improve as we keep on delaying contract talks! its not just Agger. if im not wrong Insua, Arby and maybe 1 or 2 more are also having around 18 months left.

central mid is awesome. right wing is an area where needs to be impro as we dont have anyone capable of playing thereved. left wing, i heard Leto is coming back so id like to see what he is made of. meanwhile Riera is a very good player who needs to work on his fitness.

we already have one of the top 5 GK in europe while Diego looks like a capable back-up too. so all in all, we just need a striker, a right winger and a left back. and if Agger is allowed to leave, lets not make this another Keane situation where we dont have adequate replacements.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:44 am

bigmick wrote:"well if the squad is so sh!t how come we're second in the league and only two points behind the leaders FFS?". For extra effect they normally put one of these on the end , and close their post with something along the lines of "this place gets fecking worse it really does".

change the font to red and add some spelling mistakes :;):

by **Effes** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:47 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:left wing, i heard Leto is coming back so id like to see what he is made of.

Maypax mate - he is definitley NOT the answer.
I'll bet my left bollok on that.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:49 am

Effes wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:left wing, i heard Leto is coming back so id like to see what he is made of.

Maypax mate - he is definitley NOT the answer.
I'll bet my left bollok on that.

for a couple of years now a certain McGeedy has been on the rise at Celtic. ive heard lots of him but im unsure which flank he operates on.

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:15 am

Now I know that I chucked in a couple of possible signings in my post as you do, but I shouldn't have really. This thread is definately not a "who should we sign thread" it's more of an attempt to accurately assess the squad as it stands. Often you get asked the question on here "how the feck can you slag the manager when we're second in the league", but things such as squad strength are a classic example of reasons to be a bit uneasy despite that.

Now we often get the old "if someone had told you five seasons ago we'd be challenging you'd have taken it" chestnut (which is debateable to be perfectly honest), but equally if somebody had told me five seasons ago that after five years of the Rafalution we'd have Arbeloa and Aurelio as our first choice fullbacks, Kuyt as our first choice right midfielder and Torres as our only credible striker, and it was going to cost us 150 million quid to get there, I might have done this

.

Yes there has been progress in most positions, but not in all by any means. And such things concern me. After five seasons of trying, we should have it a bit more sorted than we do, or at least I think so anyway.

by **Sarge** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:14 am

Under Benitez system, it is difficult to get 15 galacticos in the squad let alone full squad depth as nobody will be assured first team appearance. Unless if the certain player really and I do mean really aspire to play for liverpool with the likes of Torres. Speaking of Torres, he would also give a second thought of leaving if he's being subbed most of the times.

To answer your question

We do not posses full squad quality despite few quality players that we have BUT we are just not good enough on paper.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:25 am

We need another CB (for Hyypia, 2 if Agger goes) A right back, maybe even a left back if either Dossena or Insua don't improve? A creative player (and they don't come cheap) and at least one striker (and we all know they don't come cheap or with any guarantees)

I remember back in 2006 when we all thought a couple of players (striker and R winger) and we were set to win the title. Now we need at least 4 possibly more and I will be very surprised if he is given anything like the money needed to fill the gaps.

More than anything else this season has highlighted for me how much we need a creative attacking player. We have constantly struggled to break teams down, we need more craft guile and maybe someone who can beat a player. Someone like Robben or Ronaldo who can dribble into the box get defenders panicking and then you get the bonus of a few penalties as well. If you also have someone who can see and time a pass into the small gaps in defences you are onto a winner.

That to me is the REAL REASON why so many of our forwards fail to score goals. Players like Torres are good enough that they can create their own goals from next to nothing, most strikers need a supply. Pumping high balls into the box or hitting long hopeful passes is not really going to create many chances week in week out imo.

I read every week about how many shots Liverpool have had in a game 20 sometimes 30 shots. What you don't read is how many of those shots are not the result of a clever move that opened up the defense, more of a player having so few options available that they may as well have a go from distance.

Like in 2006 I think this summer was a disaster in the transfer market. The summer of 2006 cost us dearly as we took a giant step backwards, this season it could cost us even more ......... the title.

by **heimdall** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:46 am

I have said it many times before, we have a fantastic spine to the team just need to fill it out. Our absolute solid, get into any team, players are:

Reina
Carra, Skyrtel/Agger
Gerrard, Alonso, Mascha
Torres

Now this is only 7 players out of 11 and is where the problem is. We struggle to assemble a great first 11 let alone a decent squad and that is my most damning inditement of Rafa, that in 5 years he has not managed to assemble a top-class first 11 despite spending a mother load of money, it really isn't good enough, there have been far too many average quick fix short-term signings and not enough long term quality players coming in, bar some notable exceptions above. The right midfield for instance has been a problem for at least the last 5 years but has still not been addressed by Rafa, I find this baffling,surely he doesn't really think Kuyt fill that role adequately?

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