Liverpool FC Forum

by **aCe'** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:56 am

s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:I disagree with people slagging off our players, but I see nothing wrong in saying a player is too slow, or just not good enough. Its like Rafa some people think he can do no wrong..... others that he makes the odd mistake, as long as BOTH sides keep it to reasonable limits I see nothing wrong with either point of view. No need to say he's an idiot, or he should be sacked every week.

This forum is supposed to be somewhere that people can give their honest opinion, if people disagree they should be free to say so, but the level of abuse towards posters mainly by the "Happy clappers" imo is ruining the forum.

Someone saying Rafa is a genius doesn't get told to shut the fk up etc etc while someone politely expressing doubts or concerns about a team performance, a player, or Rafa etc is seen as an easy target of abuse.

We arn't at the match, where I am sure we would all back the team and the players 100%, we are on a football forum where our opinions don't really matter except to the few that read them. Rafa is not going to drop Kuyt because a poster explains in great detail why he is a liability, just as he is not going to pick Pennant because someone thinks its a great idea to give him a chance.

I don't think I have ever slagged one of our players or Rafa off, but no doubt I have gone further with my criticisms than I would like or feel comfortable with in retrospect....... being spurred on by the outlandish claims and abuse received on occasion. Similarly I am sure others exaggerate and harden their own opinions when faced with my criticisms.

I openly admit I have doubts about Rafa being the man to bring us back the title, or Kuyt being good enough to be a regular first team player. That doesn't mean I don't respect them, think they are doing the best they can, that they are idiots or anything similar. Just honest doubts.

Agreed saint , and when you get posts like this and bigmicks , it makes things so much easier to discuss . It makes it so much easier to agree to disagree and get on with it .

It's when you get stupid posts ,wanting players injured or posts that sound of real hatred towards one of our own players . This makes it hard to discuss sensibly and to tell someone that there talking aload of in a forthright manner is pretty warranted imo.

Thats what I don't really understand Igor, I can understand anyone saying pretty much anything in the match thread...... a player misses a chance ......... he's cr@p etc etc. We lose a game ...... sack Rafa. I am not saying its right ......but in the heat of the game I can understand it. In the other threads there is just no need.

i dont really understand what ur trying to say there ...
so basically after the game all is right and we shouldnt criticise players even though they fail to perform week in week out ?!
in a kuyt thread you have those defending the guy and those saying he's :censored:

... we'r all discussing his football and even if someone says that we'r better off with him injured (not that its right in any way) im sure they have nothing personal against the guy its just that most people are dissapointed and baffled really by all the playing time he gets...
Its been said before but basically in liverpool forum you expect all the people who spend hours a day coming on and discussing matches and players to be liverpool fans , at the very least.
Calling a player :censored:

in a match thread or in any other thread is just someones opinion and most of us wont be slagging off a player after just one game, consistently underperforming calls for criticism and i understand most of the negative posting going on in most threads..
some people go over the line sometimes with their criticism but except for that i dont see anything wrong with someone calling a player :censored:

or calling for rafa to be sacked !

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:55 am

aCe' wrote:i dont really understand what ur trying to say there ...
so basically after the game all is right and we shouldnt criticise players even though they fail to perform week in week out ?!
in a kuyt thread you have those defending the guy and those saying he's ... we'r all discussing his football and even if someone says that we'r better off with him injured (not that its right in any way) im sure they have nothing personal against the guy its just that most people are dissapointed and baffled really by all the playing time he gets...
Its been said before but basically in liverpool forum you expect all the people who spend hours a day coming on and discussing matches and players to be liverpool fans , at the very least.
Calling a player in a match thread or in any other thread is just someones opinion and most of us wont be slagging off a player after just one game, consistently underperforming calls for criticism and i understand most of the negative posting going on in most threads..
some people go over the line sometimes with their criticism but except for that i dont see anything wrong with someone calling a player or calling for rafa to be sacked !

No mate , what I was trying to say was there is no need to slag our players or manager off. If you don't think Kuyts good enough, say why, don't just call him a fkn useless t0sser. If you think Rafa is not doing a good job and should be replaced, you should be able to say so and why , but not in every post.

Its like the Happy clappers when we win saying "where are the doom and gloomers now, which fkn rock have they slid under". Theres just no need for it, we are ALL made up when we win even if it is Kuyt that gets the winner off his backside.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:59 am

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:It might make it a more interesting debate if the people who deplore the "cynical culture" actually engaged in football discussion as opposed to desperately trying to get under peoples skin all the time. Rather than decrying someones "lack of support", the fact that they are "not real fans" and the like, why not actually advance a sensible and coherant football argument to back up their "positivity"?

Agreed, and how about all those who insist on insulting our players and manager, and who make regular contributions such as 'Rafa is a clown', 'Kuyt is a joke', also make worthwhile contributions to the forum.

precisely... let's take an example here... as far as I know most of the Defenders of Kuyt (including me) are not supporting him blindly... they defend him because 90% of criticism he's receiving ARE NOT sensible and sometimes to the extent of being unclassy. such as the 'he's more useful injured' or 'he's more useful dead than injured' or those who reject his goal because it went off his knee or shin or whatever. And that's when the questioning of whether one is a real supporter of the club starts thrown at. If the criticism becomes too unclassy to the extent that you wish your OWN club to be thrashed by another team just to prove the point then the response is called for imo. In fact, if you look at the dirk kuyt thread ppl who're defending him ARE the ones who are explaining in length in a SENSIBLE manner not the ones who're criticising him. So, they are called 'happy clappy' for that and all the personal insults starts. In fact it is of my opnion that most of the people who are defending anyone ARE the ones explaining their support more sensibly than those who are criticising easily at the players and the manager. Of course sometimes there are these fanboys who even after a lengthy post to give reason/explain a criticism of a player, they would attempt to get under the skin of a criticiser. But to think that it is mainly the happer clappers who get under the skin of the criticiser is obviously biased.

PS. and yes like LFC put it the senseless criticisms are just too regular, too easy, and the same old thing most of the time.

by **aCe'** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:36 am

maguskwt wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:It might make it a more interesting debate if the people who deplore the "cynical culture" actually engaged in football discussion as opposed to desperately trying to get under peoples skin all the time. Rather than decrying someones "lack of support", the fact that they are "not real fans" and the like, why not actually advance a sensible and coherant football argument to back up their "positivity"?

Agreed, and how about all those who insist on insulting our players and manager, and who make regular contributions such as 'Rafa is a clown', 'Kuyt is a joke', also make worthwhile contributions to the forum.

precisely... let's take an example here... as far as I know most of the Defenders of Kuyt (including me) are not supporting him blindly... they defend him because 90% of criticism he's receiving ARE NOT sensible and sometimes to the extent of being unclassy. such as the 'he's more useful injured' or 'he's more useful dead than injured' or those who reject his goal because it went off his knee or shin or whatever. And that's when the questioning of whether one is a real supporter of the club starts thrown at. If the criticism becomes too unclassy to the extent that you wish your OWN club to be thrashed by another team just to prove the point then the response is called for imo. In fact, if you look at the dirk kuyt thread ppl who're defending him ARE the ones who are explaining in length in a SENSIBLE manner not the ones who're criticising him. So, they are called 'happy clappy' for that and all the personal insults starts. In fact it is of my opnion that most of the people who are defending anyone ARE the ones explaining their support more sensibly than those who are criticising easily at the players and the manager. Of course sometimes there are these fanboys who even after a lengthy post to give reason/explain a criticism of a player, they would attempt to get under the skin of a criticiser. But to think that it is mainly the happer clappers who get under the skin of the criticiser is obviously biased.

PS. and yes like LFC put it the senseless criticisms are just too regular, too easy, and the same old thing most of the time.

thing is.. when you say "he scored a vital goal" or "he works his as.s off" or "the mighty van basten picked him for the national side" and dismiss all other criticism that quite honestly has little to do with the response you (or any of the kuyt defenders FOR EXAMPLE) give then quite simply ur not addressing the issue... when someone comes out and says that kuyt cant control a ball and thus hes :censored:

, u cant come out and say "well who knows better you or VanBasten" cause quite simply thats what ticks most people off..
I dont see many around here coming on and simply saying "hey kuyt is sht just because i say so"... people usually build their criticism based on what they see on the pitch and not what other managers say or do.. using a couple of goals hes scored to back ur opinion up or maybe the assist or two he came up with .. while more sensible than that the other stuff.. is still not good enough evidence to many that he deserves that starting spot.. whos to say Pennant or Babel or any other player wouldnt have been in that same position and scored that same goal had they been on the pitch instead ? whos to say they wouldnt have done more? it goes both ways i know but with all hes missed and given away so far ud think a little criticism is acceptable..
I know some come out and simply say oh well if you cant support a player then u cant support the club.. thats BS mate ! and i havent seen anyone come on and say hey i know he scored today but i wish he hadnt played even if that meant we lose the game.. im sorry but until someone comes out and says that i dont think u or anyone else for all that matters is in any position to be questioning anyones support for the club !
What you see as sensible and what i see as sensible are two very different thing apparently..

and yes .. on a side note.. happy clappers do tend to think theyr better supporters of the club because they come out and praise every Dirk and Robbie regardless of how bad they are on the day ! a little objectivity is needed but if u think that everyone who criticizes kuyt or the manager is biased while ur not.. then uv got a little thinking to do there buddy..

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:17 am

aCe' wrote:a little objectivity is needed but if u think that everyone who criticizes kuyt or the manager is biased while ur not.. then uv got a little thinking to do there buddy..

first of all, if you read my last line abit more carefully again nowhere was I saying that everyone who criticisez kuyt or the manager is biased...I was saying that to think that it is mostly the happy clappers who gets under the skin of the criticiser is biased.... In fact I've criticised kuyt a few times myself I've criticised him for missing those sitters (against villa I think the point blank one and the one in the box... correct me if i'm wrong) just as I've criticised Babel for his finishing... I've criticised Kuyt for his poor first touches against marseille... I DON'T criticise him when we played for 120mins where everyone struggled but didn't give up against standard liege and he scored a goal in the end to send us through to the group stages of CL... I DON'T criticise him when the reason we didn't win a certain game is more down to our first choice strikers misfiring than Kuyt's game... to me whoever the player is Torres, Keane, Kuyt or Gerrard they should be equally liable for criticism. I will criticise about Torres, Gerrard, Alonso as much as I criticise about Kuyt. But most of the time it's 'kuyt is :censored:

'... 'rafa is a clown'... in fact almost everytime from the same people whenever we lose or draw... it is senseless, it is old, it is boring. These ppl are looking for nothing but scapegoats imo for their disappointments instead of analysing the game and criticising objectively about why we didbadly.

You say people don't criticise kuyt and say he's :censored:

because they say so... fair enough... but how bout backing up the criticism with some explanation... What about all the examples of senseless criticism that I just pointed out in my post? are these called for? Would you want your team to be thrashed 6-0 by arsenal in order to make a point? If after toiling for 120 mins your team went through to the CL grp stages because of Kuyt's goal, I don't care how much you hate the guy, or how much his first touch sucks, he deserves some appraisal and not criticism... if when rafa fielded one of the strongest possible line up against Stoke and you still end up criticising rafa for the team he puts out, then you probably needs to sort out your hatred... cause it's getting obsessive...

by **aCe'** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:41 am

maguskwt wrote:
aCe' wrote:a little objectivity is needed but if u think that everyone who criticizes kuyt or the manager is biased while ur not.. then uv got a little thinking to do there buddy..

first of all, if you read my last line abit more carefully again nowhere was I saying that everyone who criticisez kuyt or the manager is biased...I was saying that to think that it is mostly the happy clappers who gets under the skin of the criticiser is biased.... In fact I've criticised kuyt a few times myself I've criticised him for missing those sitters (against villa I think)... I've criticised him for his poor first touches against marseille... I DON'T criticise him when we played for 120mins where everyone struggled but didn't give up against standard liege and he scored a goal in the end to send us through to the group stages of CL... I DON'T criticise him when the reason we didn't win a certain game is more down to our first choice strikers misfiring than Kuyt's game... to me whoever the player is Torres, Keane, Kuyt or Gerrard they should be equally liable for criticism. I will criticise about Torres, Gerrard, Alonso as much as I criticise about Kuyt. But most of the time it's 'kuyt is '... 'rafa is a clown'... in fact almost everytime from the same people whenever we lose or draw... it is senseless, it is old, it is boring. These ppl are looking for nothing but scapegoats imo for their disappointments instead of analysing the game and criticising objectively about why we didbadly.

You say people don't criticise kuyt and say he's because they say so... fair enough... but how bout backing up the criticism with some explanation... What about all the examples of senseless criticism that I just pointed out in my post? are these called for? Would you want your team to be thrashed 6-0 by arsenal in order to make a point? If after toiling for 120 mins your team went through to the CL grp stages because of Kuyt's goal, I don't care how much you hate the guy, or how much his first touch sucks, he deserves some appraisal and not criticism... if when rafa fielded one of the strongest possible line up against Stoke and you still end up criticising rafa for the team he puts out, then you probably needs to sort out your hatred... cause it's getting obsessive...

most people do explain themselves...
maybe not in every post but most of the people i know who criticize kuyt for example do so based on certain shortcomings in his game.. and most of them have stated that clearly yet and again..

again ill say it.. he scored the goal... great job kuyt.. ur the man of the day.. thats it... doesnt mean we need to tie him up on a contract for life because he did that... he got alot of praise for that goal from everyone believe it or not... and u can bet ur right ball that everyone on that pitch or watching on the telle was fckin singing his name all night after he scored that goal but come on.. that doesnt mean that he gets a 30 day no criticism pass.. whenever he plays like sht i for one will come on here and say hes played like sht ! i wont remember the goal against standard and i wont remember the assist against the mancs...

as for rafa getting criticism for his team selection.. i dont know about the other posters but i know about what i said ( what i think you mean with me coming on and criticizing rafa after that game) if u had read wat i said i clearly gave little mention to the starting lineup and even said that having kuyt in that starting lineup was not only expected but even warranted to a large extent.. my main criticism (many other made the same point) was the subs and the tactics used by the manager in that game.. very negative and flat... and his subs were poor by all standards...

anyways we can go about this very argument all week long
and still get nowhere... i guess well just have to agree to disagree !

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:52 am

I think as a striker, Kuyt isn't up to the job. I'm not going to go into the multitude of reasons now as they've been gone over a million times. Suffice to say anybody who thinks he is to the job of playing as a striker for Liverpool based on the evidence we have seen, is in my opinion not very knowledgeable about football. Fortunately I'm not sure there is anybody left who is still arguing that he is (perhaps Owzat but even then I'm not sure. His stance was that Kuyt was as potent as Crouch and now the big fella has gone the right).

As a right midfielder in a 4-5-1 he does an adequate job. He ain't no World beater, but he does a job, milk-floating up and down the touchline. He very rarely scores a goal, very rarely creates one (infact never, he may provide the final pass, the "assist" but he never ever causes a goal to be scored) but he does give 100% effort. In a 4-5-1, with the exception of Gerrard he has made himself into our best bet with his sheer endeavour, and good luck to the bloke.

In a 4-4-2, he is nowhere near being up to playing on the right side of midfield. He is awful there and his limitations are cruelly exposed. His limitations are lack of pace, skill, game intelligence, goal threat, touch, movement and crossing ability. If he had Raffhina or whatever the feck he's called bombing up and down the touchline, or Daniel Alves or somebody like that it might possibly work as Kuyt could cover in behind while the full back did the damage. He hasn't though, he's got Arbeloa and it means the right side is largely inept in terms of creativity.

Thats it really for me. He is a lovely bloke and runs around a lot. If we play 4-5-1 he is adequate and dserves a semi regular start, if we play 4-4-2 and he gets a regular start, we are effectively playing with a handicap in every game.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:55 am

aCe' wrote:as for rafa getting criticism for his team selection.. i dont know about the other posters but i know about what i said ( what i think you mean with me coming on and criticizing rafa after that game)

wasn't talking about you particularly ace... was talking about the kind of criticisms that will get a reaction from the so called 'happy clappers'...

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:07 am

bigmick wrote:I think as a striker, Kuyt isn't up to the job. I'm not going to go into the multitude of reasons now as they've been gone over a million times. Suffice to say anybody who thinks he is to the job of playing as a striker for Liverpool based on thevidence we have seen, is in my opinion not very knowledgeable about football. Fortunately I'm not sure there is anybody left who is still arguing that he is (perhaps Owzat but even then I'm not sure).

As a right midfielder in a 4-5-1 he does an adequate job. He ain't no World beater, but he does a job, milk-floating up and down the touchline. He very rarely scores a goal, very rarely creates one (infact never, he may provide the final pass, the "assist" but he never ever causes a goal to be scored) but he does give 100% effort. In a 4-5-1, with the exception of Gerrard he has made himself into our best bet with his sheer endeavour, and good luck to the bloke.

In a 4-4-2, he is nowhere near being up to playing on the right side of midfield. He is awful there and his limitations are cruelly exposed. His limitations are lack of pace, skill, game intelligence, goal threat, touch, movement and crossing ability. If he had Raffhina or whatever the feck he's called bombing up and down the touchline, or Daniel Alves or somebody like that it might possibly work as Kuyt could cover in behind while the full back did the damage. He hasn't though, he's got Arbeloa and it means the right side is largely inept in terms of creativity.

Thats it really for me. He is a lovely bloke and runs around a lot. If we play 4-5-1 he is adequate and dserves a semi regular start, if we play 4-4-2 and he gets a regular start, we are effectively playing with a handicap in every game.

I can see what you're saying mick, even though I might not really agree to the extent of it. Difference btw you and me is that I do think that all cause is not lost for kuyt making it as a striker and I hope that doesn't make me not knowledgeable about football (because I certainly don't think about myself that way

). I would rather, if we play 4-4-2 and we play kuyt, that he play alongside Torres than as a right winger. His goals in his first season and all the goals he scored when he was in Holland shows that he does have a striker's finishing skills even if it is rushing to the goal to bundle in the ball with a variety of his body parts. That IS a striker's anticipation even though he might do it in a somewhat less graceful manner than let's say owen who bundled in alot of goals himself. And his shots in the boxes are not to the extent of being useless... at times it seems to me he has more instinct in the box than babel. Also when he was playing up front with Torres in the early part of last season, in a couple of games I saw some very promising pass interchanges between them. In fact, Torres/Kuyt started off better than Torres/Keane. In all honesty I thought that they weren't given much time to develop between them by rafa with his 'styling' perhaps? Also Torres wasn't scoring bucket loads of goals back then yet and it makes ppl believe that the pairing wasn't working. In fact I thought they had better interchanges than Torres and Keane right now. And yet we are now more willing to give Keane more time to gel with Torres which in all honestly we didn't give Kuty. The difference is that Robbie started off very early in the Premier League and he was given a chance to become a reputable striker in England. Kuyt came from a different league. He did decently in his first season. And then with a new partner in his second season he didn't score goals. So now after about half a season without scoring goals as a forward he was switched to a wide forward role by rafa and we're all saying he can't make it as a striker and we're all dismissing the 30+ goals a season he scored in the Dutch league because it is a foreign and 'lesser' league. Was he given a fair judgement? There is a abit of doubt from me regarding that.

But whatever the case, I do think that right now, giving the circumstances and the form, he is the most effective when playing as a wide forward in a 4-2-3-1. You of course think that 4-4-2 without kuyt and with gerrard on the right is the best solution which is also sensible.

by **Effes** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:48 am

Who was the clot who said he'd rather see us lose 6-0 to Arsenal to give us a wake up call?

Whoever it was needs a wake up call himself.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:47 am

The one thing i picked up on yesterday was the unwillingness to give credit where it was deserved. Take for example for man utd goal , i suggested that kuyt wasnt given credit for helping created that goal - to which was responded - all he did was play the ball ten yeards

and that masher should get the credit for it . First thing they should all get equal credit 1. Masher for his chasing down and keeping the ball alive 2. Kuyt for getting onto that ball in space , having the awareness around him to pick up a teammate as opposed to just blindly playing it accross(which berbatov did in that game) 3 and Final babel for his run and finish . Also if Kuyt is such a poor footballer who could he manage that simple ball ? And as for never creating Goals thats a load of rubbish .I can pick out a couple on particular - One of torres hat tricks last season came from two kuyts crosses- first one was a early cross to the top of the box which torres hit first time and second one was was when he was waiting for torres to get into the box and held the ball up then got himself a yard of space and then whipped the ball in for torres to complete his hat trick - Torres acknowlegded Kuyt for his assists and helping him create goals for him last year .

Kuyt is not world class.
Kuyt is not an outstanding striker or Right wing or right midfielder.
Kuyt's goal record in his second season wasnt good enough
Kuyts first touch sometimes lacks
Kuyt isnt quick
Kuyt contributed some vital goals in the CL last year and this year
Kuyt helped create a fair amount of goals last season and already this season
Kuyt defensive work and tracking back last season helped the team
Kuyt work rate has enabled the team to keep going through 90 or sometimes 120 mins by giving an outlet
Kuyt passion for the game and passion for liverpool is something other players could learn from
Kuyts game awareness is very underated
Kuyt has shown himself to be an important member for the squad and the team but shouldnt play every single game but will do until a better option is available for rafa .

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:39 am

Also Saint is Fo dne a happy clapper ? cause the level of abuse he gives people is beyond disgusting ? the man cant post without insulting someone or there opinion with some obsenity.

by **Number 9** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:42 am

GYBS wrote:Also Saint is Fo dne a happy clapper ? cause the level of abuse he gives people is beyond disgusting ? the man cant post without insulting someone or there opinion with some obsenity.

Stu's always been that way since pussy was a cat!
He's a little fairy really though!! :nod

If he sees this i will probably get called a sad little man again!! :laugh:

by **kazza** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:44 am

GYBS wrote:The one thing i picked up on yesterday was the unwillingness to give credit where it was deserved. Take for example for man utd goal , i suggested that kuyt wasnt given credit for helping created that goal - to which was responded - all he did was play the ball ten yeards and that masher should get the credit for it . First thing they should all get equal credit 1. Masher for his chasing down and keeping the ball alive 2. Kuyt for getting onto that ball in space , having the awareness around him to pick up a teammate as opposed to just blindly playing it accross(which berbatov did in that game) 3 and Final babel for his run and finish . Also if Kuyt is such a poor footballer who could he manage that simple ball ? And as for never creating Goals thats a load of rubbish .I can pick out a couple on particular - One of torres hat tricks last season came from two kuyts crosses- first one was a early cross to the top of the box which torres hit first time and second one was was when he was waiting for torres to get into the box and held the ball up then got himself a yard of space and then whipped the ball in for torres to complete his hat trick - Torres acknowlegded Kuyt for his assists and helping him create goals for him last year .

Kuyt is not world class.
Kuyt is not an outstanding striker or Right wing or right midfielder.
Kuyt's goal record in his second season wasnt good enough
Kuyts first touch sometimes lacks
Kuyt isnt quick
Kuyt contributed some vital goals in the CL last year and this year
Kuyt helped create a fair amount of goals last season and already this season
Kuyt defensive work and tracking back last season helped the team
Kuyt work rate has enabled the team to keep going through 90 or sometimes 120 mins by giving an outlet
Kuyt passion for the game and passion for liverpool is something other players could learn from
Kuyts game awareness is very underated
Kuyt has shown himself to be an important member for the squad and the team but shouldnt play every single game but will do until a better option is available for rafa .

I think that that is well said. He is not a world beater, but clearly does enough to not deserve the constant abuse that he gets.

Mick, Raffa thinks he is good enough to play as a striker. If that means that Raffa is not knowlegeable about football because you do not rate him, well that is plain funny. And it begs the question, "what do you do for a living again?"

I am not trying to insult you, but surely he must see more than you. Can you not see that? I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless of what they do for a living, but when anyone make general statements like "if you think that then you are not knowledgable" then "what do you do for a living?" becomes a ligitimate question.

Your opinion is "if you rate Kuyt as a striker you are not knowledgeable about football" well my opinion is you do not know as much as you think you do whether you can write super long posts or not.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:03 am

It seems to me its the happy clappers that get the abuse because they back the players and manager as opposed to constant slagging them off . Overall it seems no matter what happens the majority of the posts are negative ones about everything , even after the man utd win and marseille win the level of negativity was still there to be seen . yeah things are outstandingly brilliant at the moment but they are still good and positive and you can see it in the results(majority of them ) and position in table . that maybe be happy clapping or whatever its called but to me it is just trying to see the positive at the moment .

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