Liverpool FC Forum

by **Redman in wales** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:04 pm

burjennio wrote:It could also be said that if not for favourable decisions Chelsea would have lost to Villa and drew with Newcastle -

and it can also be said that they've had decisions go against them this season, and we've had dubious decisions in our favour (cara at the end of the everton game springs to mind)... so whats your point?

by **PhiLFC** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:52 pm

Fuck me there's some doom and gloom on this forum just recently. I thought this was a great read and its just what I needed to cheer me up.

Yeh ok I'm easily pleased but we last won the league in 89-90 season when I was in my 20's FFS and now I'm only 46! Never in my wildest nightmares did I think we would go as long as Utd did to get the title again. If we can win the PL within the next 2 years then I'll breath a huge sigh of relief. Ferguson was under huge pressure to get the title and his record following that has been exemplary. I reckon Rafa is ahead of schedule and I would like him to stay at Liverpool for a very very long time. But lets remember that he ain't British and he may like to go home.

My glass is neither half full nor half empty its just midway atm! Jeez what am I trying to say

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:11 pm

bigmick wrote:It's an interesting one and Paul Tompkins has made a science out of "happy clappiness". I disagree with just about every word he comes out with, being a doomer and gloomer myself (or a realist as I prefer to look at it) and I will read his next dissetation with interest. The fact we're out of the League will be nothing to do with rotation of course, or team selections, formations, tactics or anything else. My guess is it'll be those darned injuries, and there'll no doubt be a statistical analysis which tells us that if you compare the results so far this season with Rafa's forst season in charge of Valencia and divide it by the number of seasons Ferguson took to win the title, we're actually ahead of schedule in the twelve year plan. Oh and we've probably hit the post more times per match than any other team in the history of the Premiership, and conceded more penalties, and had the opposition goalie get the MOM on more occasions.

Funny post and not like you mate

To be fair though, as a man who posts seemingly endless drivel I would have hoped you of all people would be bothered to read the endless Thompkins drivel ?

by **VamosRafa** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:07 pm

Yep, it does make for interesting reading, but i'm not convinced. Does this mean all we have to do is wait another three years, and then we might have a chance at winning the title? I'll tell you now, you can call it a rash kneejerk reaction but i'd vote to sack Rafa now if that's the case. The fact that he wrote the article in case of a loss against Utd make me feel like being sick. How pathetic is that? He has a 5,000 word essay prepared explaining why our rivals are far superior to us, in case of defeat. Look like Hicks was right on the money when he was talking about inferiority complexes.

Even if we want to keep Rafa on and let him have 5 more years to "build an empire", do you really think the Americans are willing to be that patient? The amount of money in football these days pretty much ensures that managers have to get it right quickly or they face the axe, as Chairmen become more and more ruthless. Look at Jol, he spends 2 seasons stabilising spurs and turning them into a team that could challenge the top 4, then faces the sack after a poor start after something like 12 league games. Look at Mourinho ffs, idolised by the players, 2 premiership titles, but still given the boot. I fear for by Benitez if the yanks decision making policy on the stadium is anything to go on.

by **Reg** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:47 pm

G&H paid a full price for the club plus are tied into stadium financial commitments etc.. that they cant simply back out of, sacking the manager now would not be productive in terms of cashflow (pay-off, plus cost of new management team coming in - just ask the FA, plus incoming manager´s transfer kitty) or stability to attract further finance during a tricky period. The club needs to show stability and realistic cashflow projections for the next 3 years going forward. G&H will stick with Rar-far I would imagine until we are back on an even keel financially or as Ferguson can attest to, year 6 and he´s in the warm stuff and he suddenly comes up with goods but until then from a commecial point of view it wouldnt make sense to sack El Goatie.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:39 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:To be fair though, as a man who posts seemingly endless drivel I would have hoped you of all people would be bothered to read the endless Thompkins drivel ?

There's no "seemingly" about my endless drivel mate, it's just endless. I do read through Mr Tompkins's stuff despite the fact that that I don't agree with him. Me and him are very similar in posting styles in some ways (although obviously I'm nowhere near his standard in terms of quality of writing) and we both bore the pants off everyone with the way we endlessly repeat ourselves and stick to our guns.

The only real difference that I can see is that I think in time, I'll be proven right on the issue which I most disagree with him about.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:09 pm

bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:To be fair though, as a man who posts seemingly endless drivel I would have hoped you of all people would be bothered to read the endless Thompkins drivel ?

There's no "seemingly" about my endless drivel mate, it's just endless. I do read through Mr Tompkins's stuff despite the fact that that I don't agree with him. Me and him are very similar in posting styles in some ways (although obviously I'm nowhere near his standard in terms of quality of writing) and we both bore the pants off everyone with the way we endlessly repeat ourselves and stick to our guns.

The only real difference that I can see is that I think in time, I'll be proven right on the issue which I most disagree with him about.

Which is ?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:21 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:To be fair though, as a man who posts seemingly endless drivel I would have hoped you of all people would be bothered to read the endless Thompkins drivel ?

There's no "seemingly" about my endless drivel mate, it's just endless. I do read through Mr Tompkins's stuff despite the fact that that I don't agree with him. Me and him are very similar in posting styles in some ways (although obviously I'm nowhere near his standard in terms of quality of writing) and we both bore the pants off everyone with the way we endlessly repeat ourselves and stick to our guns.

The only real difference that I can see is that I think in time, I'll be proven right on the issue which I most disagree with him about.

Which is ?

Now you've done it Leon, expect a three page dissertation on rotation and its pitfalls in the next few hours.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:43 am

No there'll be no more three page dissitations on the subject Saint from me mate. The debate is as good as over as far as I can see and there's no need for in depth analysis. I said all along that not only was it not possible to win the Premiership whilst rotating "Rafa style", I also went further and said it would be impossible to even mount a challenge. Events have rendered the debate over as far as I can see.

I said at the start of the season that a challenge was to get within six points or so. Now even if we were to achieve that (which I'm fairly certain we won't but anyway) I think it's extremely unlikely that it will amount to a title "challenge". Now I'm fully aware that Mr Tompkins and other staunch supporters of the system are beginning to get the "ah but it was the injuries" in and all that nonsense, but the simple fact of the matter is that once again it has definately not helped us. I guess the next refuge will be that in actual fact we never were good enough, that finishing ten/twelve/fourteen points off the top is about where we're at and rotation made absolutely no difference.

Mr Tompkins and many others will advocate another try at "Rafa style" next season. More resting people after three or four games, more seventy odd changes to the team in the first fifteen matches and then a collective head scratch when it takes us a while to gel, more changes to the formation from game to game, more leaving your best players on the bench at one of the most difficult grounds in the country to go to. Some will advocate another bash at it and some won't. Those that think there might concieveably be another way of doing things will of course be plastic fans, knee-jerkers, hypocrits, disloyal, clueless etc etc. Those that think we should give it another go though are true fans, believers, match goers etc etc. Those people in the "give it another go" camp will also add on to the first part of this paragraph "more Champions League finals", "more record points totals" etc etc. They're right of course. If you want to remain extremely competitive in the Champions League and finish 10-20 points behind the League Champions then there is no point in changing the manager. If however you want to win the League, IMHO you either need to change the manager or he needs to change his methods.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:50 am

I can't really argue with you Mick, fair play you seem to have called it just about right. What will you say next season if the new manager or Rafa( in the unlikely event) ,don't rotate and we still don't sustain any sort of challenge though? Will it be the players and maybe you were wrong all along? (I am grasping at straws now mate

)

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:57 am

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:To be fair though, as a man who posts seemingly endless drivel I would have hoped you of all people would be bothered to read the endless Thompkins drivel ?

There's no "seemingly" about my endless drivel mate, it's just endless. I do read through Mr Tompkins's stuff despite the fact that that I don't agree with him. Me and him are very similar in posting styles in some ways (although obviously I'm nowhere near his standard in terms of quality of writing) and we both bore the pants off everyone with the way we endlessly repeat ourselves and stick to our guns.

The only real difference that I can see is that I think in time, I'll be proven right on the issue which I most disagree with him about.

Which is ?

Now you've done it Leon, expect a three page dissertation on rotation and its pitfalls in the next few hours.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:59 am

bigmick wrote:I said at the start of the season that a challenge was to get within six points or so. Now even if we were to achieve that (which I'm fairly certain we won't but anyway) I think it's extremely unlikely that it will amount to a title "challenge". Now I'm fully aware that Mr Tompkins and other staunch supporters of the system are beginning to get the "ah but it was the injuries" in and all that nonsense, but the simple fact of the matter is that once again it has definately not helped us. I guess the next refuge will be that in actual fact we never were good enough, that finishing ten/twelve/fourteen points off the top is about where we're at and rotation made absolutely no difference.

The absolute reality as far as I'm concerned is that we probably just aren't quite good enough to mount a challenge right now. I thought we had a fairly good chance of having a shot at the league this season, and despite there being numerous factors that have contributed to our downfall in the league, ultimately (IMHHO) we just don't quite have as many quality players as the manc's or Arsenal. Fine margins, yes, but that extra attacking quality defines those fine margins. I can't believe anyone would stick by the 'we have a squad as good as any other in the league' statement.

If you want to remain extremely competitive in the Champions League and finish 10-20 points behind the League Champions then there is no point in changing the manager. If however you want to win the League, IMHO you either need to change the manager or he needs to change his methods.

In which case, you would advocate a change of manager as soon as is physically possible.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:15 am

s@int wrote:I can't really argue with you Mick, fair play you seem to have called it just about right. What will you say next season if the new manager or Rafa( in the unlikely event) ,don't rotate and we still don't sustain any sort of challenge though? Will it be the players and maybe you were wrong all along? (I am grasping at straws now mate )

It's an interesting question Saint but unfortunately we'll never really get an answer. Whoever is the manager next season will surely buy some more players and ship out a couple so it won't actually be the same team we are comparing.

If for instance the manager was Rafa and he replaced Kuyt with David Villa, then I have no doubts that rotation or not we would improve by quite a bit. Similarly, if Mourinho came in as manager and brought in Samuel Eto, if he played the same team every week and we improved it would be more down to better players than a system.

It just frustrates and maddens me to be perfectly honest. If the anti's are proven right then so the feck what? Who cares at the end of the day? What's more important is that we've gone another season without winning the League, despite (IMHO anyway) having a bunch of players who are good enough to go very close.

While we haven't got the money the other big four have got, it's worth remembering we have probably the best striker in the League (bought by Rafa of course). We've got the best central midfield in the league and probably the best midfielder in Gerrard. We've got the best goalie in the league (bought by Rafa) as well as a rock solid defence. Given all this, surely we are capable of making a better fist of it than we have. Our challenge has never really got off the ground despite a really easy first half of the season, all the while rotating players so they'll be fit and sharp on the run-in.

Like I say, it's so fecking annoying it's untrue. We've got the best striker in the League who is all about pace, movement, anticipation and skill. We've got another bloke who has scored loads of golas for England, and quite a lot for Liverpool. He plays the game in a totally different way to our star striker, but still offers a goal threat. We've never though given them a chance to play together, to form a partnership. We sit Crouch on his erse for months on end, give him an hour with Torres and say "nah it don't work". We chop and change the formation willy nilly, moving the full backs and the wide players in and out with gay abandon and then wonder why we lack fluency out wide. It's all Ok while we're going well, it looks good but the minute we lkose one or have a bad performance, feck me we have a bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip which last six fecking weeks.

I really do believe Saint that with this group of players, the strongest or very close to it team playing in most matches of the league and the first three games of the Champions League group games, we'd be seven or eight points better off than we are and right in the mix.

Of course THE most annoying thing of all is that we're likely to finish so far back that even challenging for it next season is going to be a mountain to climb. Finish close (with five or six points away) this season and it's a small step to get there. Finish well back and it's back to square one.

The debate on rotation is over for me, the anger at the sheer stupidity of the whole fecking thing gets worse as the season goes on.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:22 am

LFC2007 wrote:In which case, you would advocate a change of manager as soon as is physically possible.

No I wouldn't advocate changing the manager as soon as is physically possible. Changing the manager in January would be ridiculous IMHO. The thought of a new man coming in and having a couple of days to prepare for the next game is not what is needed.

No, Rafa needs to go till the end of the season and see where we are, after all if you want to have a good go at the Champions League you couldn't get anyone better than him that's for sure.

If he has a road to Damascus moment between now and the end of the season and manages to convince the powers that be that we aren't about to revisit the "Rafa style" next season they may well give him another go. My opinion on the matter is entirely irrelavent, but in the unlikely event that anybody is interested I don't think we are about to get such a moment of revelation, and even if we did it's need to be pretty convincing for me to advocate another year.

by **redtrader74** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:31 am

Mick if you are definatly not willing to give him another year, and obviously don't see us mounting any kind of challenge this year, then surely you should be calling for Rafas head, a replacement now would have 8 monthes to prepare for the EPL. If he continues to feck around Rafa style as you put, then he probably won't get us by Inter either. So sacking him should be your logical step.

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