Liverpool FC Forum

by **kazza** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:37 am

Owen Hargreaves £17.000.000
Anderson £15.000.000
Nani £13.500.000
Carlos Tevez £10.000.000

It says here that united paid 10 million for Tevez. Seems cheap to me.

by **kazza** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:52 am

Toffeehater wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Houiller has a lot to answer for, cant believe weve spent more than them and havent won the title.

20 million down the drain , diouf 10 mill , diao 6 mill , cheyrou 4 mill , this is 20 million which cud have been saved . Rafa also has had his bad signings . Morrienties 7 mill i tink , gonzales 5 mill , bellamy wasn't really that good 6 mill , the list goes on for the players who haven't made it for liverpool

Fernando Morientes was then sold for £3.000.000 (-3,300,000)

Mark Gonzalez was then sold for £4.200.000 (-300,000)

Craig Bellamy was then sold for£7.500.000 (+1,500,000)

Aside from Morientes, not really that bad. Rafa bought Carson for 750,000 so profit will be made there in Jan. If Crouch is sold in Jan I am sure he will sell for more than what we paid (7,000,000).

I think that generally Rafa has been clever in the transfer market (Alvaro Arbeloa for £2.600.000 is great business) . Once you factor out Houlliers dead wood, we have not spent as much as United or Chelsea. Arsenal now that is another matter.

by **Ciggy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:55 am

Weve spent a lot but LOL @ Newcastle

by **tubby** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:28 am

Reading all this just makes the current situation even more depressing.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:33 am

bavlondon wrote:Reading all this just makes the current situation even more depressing.

Somebody pass me the razor blades

by **Owzat** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:40 pm

Firstly is that a credible source? It's not a major website, could be some manc with a calculator pressing all the wrong keys. The absence of any players with fees leaves way too much scope to fiddle it, while I may not be 100% sure of my fees, I do list them so people can see what I believe the fee was. Details expose clear flaws as I'm sure will transpire from my calculations below

This source http://premiersoccerstats.com/ManagerDets.cfm?ManagerID=BenitezR gives Rafa as spending £125m, however it doesn't cite Kuyt (£10m), Crouch (£7m) and Lucas (£8m?) as having a fee so add £25m on and that does roughly tally for Rafa leastwise. Whether or not Mascherano or Tevez have actually had fees paid for them I'm not sure, I think they are both still owned by the outside interest and wrongly so in my view

Jose is listed as having spent £224m on this same source http://premiersoccerstats.com/ManagerDets.cfm?ManagerID=MourinhoJ so again the net spend looks about right for him.

The key question is how much fergie has spent in the past 3 and a bit seasons.

£30m Nani & Anderson (reported combined fee)
? ? ? Tevez
£5.5m Evra
£7.0m Vidic
£25m Rooney
£17m Hargreaves
£18m Carrick
£4.0m Park

That's around £107m, what the raw stats here overlook is that Rafa was completely rebuilding the team from scratch and only a few players remain from his predecessor (Riise, Carra, Gerrard, Finnan, Kewell and not a lot more if any) while fergie has retained Ronaldo £12m, Silvestre £4m, Ferdinand £30m and Saha £12m - roughly £58m combined.

Houllier wasted a lot, however fergie bought Veron £28m, Ferdinand £30m and Van Nistelrooy £19m in the time that our highest fee was Cisse £14m. I beg the question if they attributed Cisse's fee to Rafa.

So what you have is comparing two unlike things, one manager in the middle of a long spell with a settled team who have been successful compared to a new manager rebuilding and therefore having to spend to replace unwanted rubbish.

And finally the whole analysis is inappropriate as spending now is much more than past seasons so fergie generally outspent most managers, but not with the same large fees that fly about these days. Fees seems to be settling down in terms of highest fees, however you get large prices paid for ordinary players so more fees in the £10m-£20m bracket.

by **stmichael** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:01 pm

As the saying goes, there's lies, damn lies and statistics.

The net spend was nearer 20 million last summer, not the 40 million like most were spouting, when you consider the money we recouped on players and the fact that we made the CL final.

Also, the stat doesn't take into consideration the number of players bought in that period, Ferguson didn't need to rebulid the whole squad in 3-4 years like Rafa. Rafa has also only brought one player over 20m, 3 players over 10m (Babel, Kuyt and Alonso). Ferguson has spent £30m on Rooney, 17 on Anderson, 13 on Nani, 17 on Hargreaves, 18 on Carrick etc. Nani and Carrick can't even get in the first team when everyone is fit.

by **Reg** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:02 pm

Ciggy wrote:Houiller has a lot to answer for, cant believe weve spent more than them and havent won the title.

Spot on. Houllier wasted a sh!tload of money and when Rafa came the first thing he did was replace the french failures with spanish err... players.

Fergie and Wenger have had continuity over the last 15 years so havent wasted money - spent yes, wasted no.

Hence it makes no sense to sack Rafa now when a new guy coming in would want to spend 50+ million for the sake of it. Appears managers dont feel they are real men until they have flashed around a few million.... !!

by **Bermenstein** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:31 pm

Wenger is an absolute genius.

by **tubby** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:21 pm

Not sure if this is the right place to put this but I just heard on the radio that the bottom team this year gets £30Mil as part of the new TV deal. How much would that give 4th or 3rd place?

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:13 pm

Right, I've compared the spending of the mancs with us over the Premiership period. It's not complete in the sense that I haven't checked EVERY single transfer and EVERY single fee, but it's good enough.

Now where to start

These figures include some prominent youth players, obviously that won't affect the fees aspect

2004/5-2007/8

Liverpool - 39 players, £142.250m (ave £3.65m)
Man Utd - 15 players, £114.400m (ave £7.63m)

So since Rafa took over we have spent more on players, but signed nearly THREE times as many players which as I said is expected given Rafa had to change the team. It is worrying that the figure isn't closer to a squad size of say 24 which shows he has brought in players and got shot fairly quickly.

1992/3-2007/8

Liverpool - 104 players, £312.575m (ave £3.01m)
Man Utd - 63 players, £324.590m (ave £5.15m)

Those figures do include youth players as mentioned, however it will roughly be the same for both sides. I would list the full fees but normally some picky so and so goes through and criticises so I won't this time. However I have listed below those players I'm not 100% sure on and where the original figures that initiated this thread may have gone wrong

Anderson £18m, Nani £12m (reported combined fee of £30m)
Pongolle £3m, Le Tallec £3m (reported combined fee of £6m or so)
Mascherano & Tevez - not included so it probably evens out
Rooney £25m - I've seen it reported as bigger and smaller
Torres £26.5m - this is about the biggest I've seen it reported as
Kuyt £10m - I've seen sites that report no fee
Ferdinand £30m - commonly accepted although sometimes refuted
Carrick £18m - you get claims some of the fee depends on success
Hargreaves £17m - same as Carrick and a lot of players

It doesn't matter if these are wholly accurate since mostly these things balance out. Unless fees are many millions out then it won't be far off given the number of players involved

So why have Liverpool spent nearly as much as fergie? Well we've had FOUR managers in the Premiership while fergie has had a steady established side. He's brought in expensive signings rather than lots of cheaper ones, perhaps therein lies the mistake Rafa has made. fergie's supposed to have been a genius in developing youth, since 2001/2 he has been on a quest to spend big and dominate that way. Considering he had Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and Neville he STILL spent huge amounts on players. This reinforces my belief he desperately wants a second Champions League before he retires, if it were about league titles he may well have retired in 2002/3

2001/2-2007/8

Man Utd - 32 players, £248.690m (ave £7.77m)
Liverpool - 55 players, £196.100m (ave £3.57m)

Interestingly people say Man Utd didn't buy league titles to start with, however I also included a separate list of players I know played in the Premiership but were signed before and it makes for interesting comparison. Never let it be said we bought league titles after this, the mancs spent plenty before they won league titles

Premiership players signed pre 1992/3

Man Utd - 15 players, £18.110m (ave £1.21m)
Liverpool - 22 players, £15.185m (ave £0.69m)

That includes in descending value order :

Kanchelskis £5.0m
Rush £2.8m
Pallister £2.3m
Parker £2.0m
Robson £1.5m
Webb £1.5m
Thomas £1.5m
Walters £1.25m
Ince £1.0m
James £1.0m

The mancs certainly weren't shy in spending cash back then even. So we've spent a lot of money, but that's because we've had so many managers and bought a lot of players as a consequence.

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