Liverpool FC Forum

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:33 pm

I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency.

How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?

Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss.

We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season.

Since football was invented by Rubert Murdoch, otherwise known as the inception of the Premier League, the winners of the league have fared as follows:

1992/93 - Man United
Lost 6 of 42 = 14.2%
Drawn 12 of 42 = 28.5%

1993/94 - Man United
Lost 4 of 42 = 9.5%
Drawn 11 of 42 = 26.1%

1994/95 - Blackburn
Lost 7 of 42 = 16.6%
Drawn 8 of 42 = 19%

1995/96 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1996/97 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

1997/98 - Arsenal
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1998/99 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 13 of 38 = 34.2%

1999/2000 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

2000/01 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2001/02 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 9 of 38 = 23.6%

2002/03 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2003/04 - Arsenal
Lost 0 of 38 = 0%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

2004/05 - Chelsea
Lost 1 of 38 = 2.6%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2005/06 - Chelsea
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 4 of 38 = 10.5%

2006/07 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 5 of 38 = 13.1%

Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:44 pm

It was the manner of the defeat waving the white flag surrendering the game at 2-1 down, the team needed changing after 20 minutes crying out for width.

We should have won that game we still have to travel to OT, SB and the Emirates this season 3 very tough places to go to get a result.

I love Rafa and dont want another manager to come in, the rotation was not the problem the problem was changing the formation 4-4-2 has served us well so far this season. Crouch even said he was suprised at the 4-3-3 as they didnt prepare for it this way and hardly ever do.

Rafa Benitez has only one problem and that is Rafa Benitez himself

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 pm

i also fail to see what previous seasons and other teams has to do with us this season

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:39 pm

peewee wrote:i also fail to see what previous seasons and other teams has to do with us this season

Peewee you fail to see so much that I wonder wether or not you are actually Arsene Wenger.

by **eds** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:41 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency.

How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?

Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss.

We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season.

Since football was invented by Robert Murdoch, otherwise known as the inception of the Premier League, the winners of the league have fared as follows:

1992/93 - Man United
Lost 6 of 42 = 14.2%
Drawn 12 of 42 = 28.5%

1993/94 - Man United
Lost 4 of 42 = 9.5%
Drawn 11 of 42 = 26.1%

1994/95 - Blackburn
Lost 7 of 42 = 16.6%
Drawn 8 of 42 = 19%

1995/96 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1996/97 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

1997/98 - Arsenal
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1998/99 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 13 of 38 = 34.2%

1999/2000 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

2000/01 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2001/02 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 9 of 38 = 23.6%

2002/03 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2003/04 - Arsenal
Lost 0 of 38 = 0%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

2004/05 - Chelsea
Lost 1 of 38 = 2.6%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2005/06 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 4 of 38 = 10.5%

2006/07 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 5 of 38 = 13.1%

Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99.

Leon, this post is quite daft indeed!

How does one babble incoherently, yet think they are putting a logic argument forward??? Anyways here goes in deflating your silly viewpoints yet again:

"I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency"

What does this mean? Are you expecting people to post consistent views when we beat the likes of Besiktas 8-0, yet lose to teams like Marseille at home OR beat teams like Porto 4-1 at home but lose to Reading or draw to Brum at home?

By what terms do you mean consistent? I believe that if we play like retarded monkeys, I will call it for what it is and if we play football out of this world, I will do the same? Surely this is "consistency"

But if you expect me to be happy when we lose to a medicore team because we gave up or our players were not good, YOU CAN get your CRANK shaft off it mate, because you are SPROUTING :censored:

!

"How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?"

Ummm prolly has something to do with realistic fans, (which you continue to undermine by the way) seeing results one week (per se scoring 21 goals in 5 games) and then drawing or worse yet losing to medicore teams (per se READING on the weekend)? I can clearly see why people would have a positive outlook only to be shattered once again. One of the posters a few weeks ago put it very eloquently, "we turned a corner this week" but the again "we are always turning corners" at this club. :upside:

"Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss."

FFS STOP USING THE WORD FICKLE. THERE IS NOTHING FICKLE IN SUPPORTING A CLUB THAT HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS! All you are doing here is generalising people. Please go back into the last weeks threads and SHOW US where a particular poster was over the moon at how well we were playing and saying "we would win the league" only to this weekend "say that we are out of it". I have read a LOT of posts recently and can't remember anyone let alone a chorus of people falling into your absurd generalisation.

"We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season."

Who in their right mind would think that we are invincible and will go undefeated for long bursts over the stage of a season? Who has said that? You won't get any argument from me BECAUSE YOU HAVE CREATED A BASELESS GENERALISATION AND THE COME UP WITH AN ENTIRE ARGUMENT AGAINST IT! The mind boggles, really it does???

"Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99."

Those are all wonderful figures. Wonderful but stupid nonetheless, as no one understands what point you are trying to make.

Let me pull you off the train to Loonyville and put you back into "were we have been for the last 18 years and were the F**K we could be headed this week". Lose against Marseille tomorrow and we are out of the Champions League, why? Because we got 1 point from our first three games and lost to teams like Marseille and Besiktas, the equivalent of our relagation fodder in the EPL? Lose against Man United and our chances of winning the EPL take a turn for the worse, why?
Because we lost to Reading, because we drew to teams like Birmingham and Tottenham at home and scraped out draws against Pompey and Blackburn.

Why, you keep asking? Now here it is the clincher, the word you soooooooo wrongly used earlier on..............

INCONSISTENT

Oh is this going to come back and haunt you son. Under Rafa's tenure:

How does one team beat the likes of Chelsea, Juventus, Milan and go on to the win the CL? Yet only manage to come 5th in the EPL that same season?

How does a team beat the likes of Chelsea and The Scum and go on to win the FA CUP? Yet in the same season still can't beat them in the league?

How does a team beat Barcelona, Chelsea and play Milan off the park only to go down in painful CL final? Yet still be 20 points behind the winners of the EPL the same season?

And then there is this season, good results against Arsenal and the recent 21 goals in 5 games patch only to draw against teams like the Brum and Tottenham at HOME or lose to teams like Reading, Marseille and Besiktas.

One word and one word only INCONSISTENCY.

And somehow the fans are inconsistent in your eyes? Don't worry mate there is a show on TV about some people deserted on island trying to find out what is going on? The title of that show sums up this thread.....................

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:53 pm

To be honest, I think Leonmc has a point.

Defeats are part of any club's life, and I do detect some overreaction when we lose or we have a couple of bad matches. It's as if it wouldn't take much to some people to lose all the confidence on Rafa and the players.

If you come from some victories and looking strong, you almost have to say "sorry" for being optimistic and even accused of gloating. However it's perfectly normal when we lose our first game to talk about "masters of our downfall" when we're still competing for everything this season.

If I don't have to get too carried away with my optimism, I won't. But I think some calmness is needed when we have a bad game, which EVERY team will have.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:57 pm

eds wrote:Leon, this post is quite daft indeed!

IT is quite daft indeed ? More so than the phrase quite daft indeed ? It almost definitely maybe certain to possibly be so yes and no.

eds wrote:How does one babble incoherently, yet think they are putting a logic argument forward???

You tell me, you have managed to do so here.

eds wrote:"I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency"

What does this mean? Are you expecting people to post consistent views when we beat the likes of Besiktas 8-0, yet lose to teams like Marseille at home OR beat teams like Porto 4-1 at home but lose to Reading or draw to Brum at home? By what terms do you mean consistent? I believe that if we play like retarded monkeys, I will call it for what it is and if we play football out of this world, I will do the same? Surely this is "consistency" But if you expect me to be happy when we lose to a medicore team because we gave up or our players were not good, YOU CAN get your CRANK shaft off it mate, because you are SPROUTING !

I thought that was straight forward, but just in case I will explain again. Lots of posters on internet forums are inconsistent in their views, and will post about how good we are and how much we will win everything after a good result, and then post about how the manager has to go and the guy is a fool after one defeat.

This is not just here, in the pub and on hte radio phone ins as well. Instead of taking it easy following a win, and then going easy following a bad/indifferent result its got to be total and utter over reaction.

eds wrote:"How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?"

Ummm prolly has something to do with realistic fans, (which you continue to undermine by the way) seeing results one week (per se scoring 21 goals in 5 games) and then drawing or worse yet losing to medicore teams (per se READING on the weekend)? I can clearly see why people would have a positive outlook only to be shattered once again. One of the posters a few weeks ago put it very eloquently, "we turned a corner this week" but the again "we are always turning corners" at this club.

Its nothing to do with realistic fans, thats the problem here (for me).

Shattered ? - After one loss, our first in the league ? Shattered ? I was shattered in Athens and at half time in Istanbul, not following our first league defeat of the season in December.

eds wrote:"Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss."

FFS STOP USING THE WORD FICKLE. THERE IS NOTHING FICKLE IN SUPPORTING A CLUB THAT HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS! All you are doing here is generalising people. Please go back into the last weeks threads and SHOW US where a particular poster was over the moon at how well we were playing and saying "we would win the league" only to this weekend "say that we are out of it". I have read a LOT of posts recently and can't remember anyone let alone a chorus of people falling into your absurd generalisation.

Stop using the word fickle ? Why ? Thats what all too many football fans are. Maybe its not their fault, maybe its born out of the media portrayal of football in this country. But fickle is EXACTLY what lots of football fans are.

When we win, its over hyped, when we lose its over played.

eds wrote:"We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season."

Who in their right mind would think that we are invincible and will go undefeated for long bursts over the stage of a season? Who has said that? You won't get any argument from me BECAUSE YOU HAVE CREATED A BASELESS GENERALISATION AND THE COME UP WITH AN ENTIRE ARGUMENT AGAINST IT! The mind boggles, really it does???

The point is that we will not win every game, in fact we will even lose a few, so instead of making out liekthe World has stopped spinning people need to take a step back, engage the brain and not jump in two footed with posts like "Rafa is clueless"

eds wrote:"Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99."

Those are all wonderful figures. Wonderful but stupid nonetheless, as no one understands what point you are trying to make.

The point is, for the hard of thinking like your good self, that we will lose games over the period of the season, and we will draw games, but we can still do this and win the league. I am not saying that we will, just that we still can.

eds wrote:Let me pull you off the train to Loonyville and put you back into "were we have been for the last 18 years and were the F**K we could be headed this week". Lose against Marseille tomorrow and we are out of the Champions League, why? Because we got 1 point from our first three games and lost to teams like Marseille and Besiktas, the equivalent of our relagation fodder in the EPL? Lose against Man United and our chances of winning the EPL take a turn for the worse, why?
Because we lost to Reading, because we drew to teams like Birmingham and Tottenham at home and scraped out draws against Pompey and Blackburn.

I now exactly where we have been the last eighteen years, I have spent most of it watching my club play football all over Europe.

Your argument here is look at what could happen if we lose ?

How about looking at what might be ? How about beliving ? How about daring to dream ? How about Faith in our future ?

Ah no fu.ck it lets look at the doom and gloom and what could go wrong.

eds wrote:Why, you keep asking? Now here it is the clincher, the word you soooooooo wrongly used earlier on..............

INCONSISTENT

So wrongly used ? How ? People are inconsitent with their views and over react, thats a fact.

eds wrote:Oh is this going to come back and haunt you son.

You ARE NOT my Father.

eds wrote:Under Rafa's tenure:

How does one team beat the likes of Chelsea, Juventus, Milan and go on to the win the CL? Yet only manage to come 5th in the EPL that same season?

How does a team beat the likes of Chelsea and The Scum and go on to win the FA CUP? Yet in the same season still can't beat them in the league?

How does a team beat Barcelona, Chelsea and play Milan off the park only to go down in painful CL final? Yet still be 20 points behind the winners of the EPL the same season?

Its called football, and thats why we all love it. Any day, David can beat Goliath. Any given Sunday (or Monday or Saturday or Wednesday or whatever) ANY team can beat ANY team.

That could be an off day, it could be cus one team plays out of their skin, cus one team plays absolute garbage, or it could just be one of those days.

It is also to do with the difference between cup football and league football. There is a big difference. If you need me to axplain this then let me know.

eds wrote:And then there is this season, good results against Arsenal and the recent 21 goals in 5 games patch only to draw against teams like the Brum and Tottenham at HOME or lose to teams like Reading, Marseille and Besiktas.

Once again, thats football. Man United lost to Bolton, Coventry and Man City this season, teams they SHOULD be beating on paper. (Sadly the game is not played on paper).

eds wrote:One word and one word only INCONSISTENCY.

No, poor form, a bad day at the office and poor decisions have also contributed to hose losses. Equally in MArsielle this season we saw the best performance by a visiting European team since Valencia a few years back. Who was it who managed Valencia again ?

eds wrote:And somehow the fans are inconsistent in your eyes? Don't worry mate there is a show on TV about some people deserted on island trying to find out what is going on? The title of that show sums up this thread.....................

Some fans are incosisten in that there is no middle ground Yes.

Whats the TV show by the way ?

by **babu** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:24 pm

Sabre wrote:I do detect some overreaction when we lose or we have a couple of bad matches.

our RS sherlock.

by **Judge** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:39 pm

I was indeed disappointed in the manner of the defeat to reading, however, i am not waiving the white flag. Rafa's mentality is such that i feel that the cl is what he believes we can achieve more consistantly. In view of the record of LFC in recent years, it most certainly suggests that.

Nonetheless, it is losses such as these that Rafa needs to account for, and allow for a more attacking stance, to ensure failure is not an option. The side on saturday was so narrow and players were not utilised effectivley in position, it came as no surprise that we came undone. Personally, i do not like the tinkering with the team, and feel that Rafa should know by now that putting the strongest side out (as Arsenal do), is the only way of having a fair chance of victory in every match.

In response to Leons post, i think its fair to cross-examine previous champs, as despite our loss, its not the end of the world for the league. But a couple of more bad losses to lower oppo will suggest our title aspirations will be lost for yet another year.

time will tell, and i hope Rafa learns from this incident now.

by **dawson99** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:42 pm

whatever facts u use, doesnt change the fact we were gash on saturday due to the managers decisions, but i still have faith

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:45 pm

dawson99 wrote:whatever facts u use, doesnt change the fact we were gash on saturday due to the managers decisions, but i still have faith

Thats not what I am arguing against here either mate.

Poor team selection, tactics that never worked, some poor performances from players selected where all things in our control. A poor decision from the officials for the penalty also contributred.

My post and thread is about over reaction to results.

by **stmichael** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:56 pm

Good post Leon. Some of the tripe I've read from so called "fans" today has been unbelievable.

Yes it was a poor performance. Yes the ref was sh#te (especially in the first half) and yes the formation was wrong, but regardless of those factors, if you defend as poorly as we did you're likely to lose games anyway.

I for one am sick of people getting on the backs of every player who doesn't play well. Sissoko was pretty shocking in possession but other than that he worked his butt off for the side. Some of the abuse he gets is shocking and totally unfair, especially when the likes of Mascherano and Carragher (who's been average by his own standards this season) get away scot free for equally poor performances.

We win the next two games and Rafa will no doubt go from being a muppet to a hero again.

by **burjennio** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:56 pm

2005/06 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 4 of 38 = 10.5%

Chelsea won the league 05-06

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:04 pm

burjennio wrote:
2005/06 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 4 of 38 = 10.5%

Chelsea won the league 05-06

Changed - I used the first one and copied and pasted it 15 times then changed the dates and points etc. Must have missed that one.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:11 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:and copied and pasted it

Talking about copying & pasting Ahem ^^^^^^^^^^^^

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