Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:13 pm

Firstly apologies to Saint (and to a slightly lesser extent Bad Bob) because this is simply a rhetorical question which was asked by them on the rotation thread moved over here because it's a seperate subject.

The point which has been raised on there is that far from rotation being the culprit should we fail to challenge for the title, the real reason is that we are simply short of two or three players and not quite up to it. No amount of sticking to a settled team, finding rhythm and cohesion etc is going to alter that.

Saint has been banging on about this "creative second striker" concept for quite a while now, and he has convinced most of the forum (me included) that there is some validity in what he is saying. The other obvious positions which came up were the wide players and central defensive cover.

So what do you guys think? Completely putting aside rotation for a second (gulp!), are we good enough to win the title? I made a point on there which I stand by that Arsenal are by a country mile a better team than they were last season, I think Man Utd have improved as well, and to be perfectly honest I think so have we. Now I said we could have challenged for the title LAST season, so the question is can we and will we challenge for it this season and maybe win it, or have our immediate rivals just improved beyond our reach?

by **zarababe** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:18 pm

Yes we can challenge I think we'll be there or there abouts - something importrant happened in the CL win and the league wins - we have our confidence back the team is regaining form and key injured players wil be back and there is a belief about the team - I believe we'll be a lot closer then people think - wait and watch !

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:22 pm

If we can go into the home game against Wigan within 3-7 points of the top team, then we will be right in there.

No one ever won the league in September, October, November or December. In fact no one ever won it in January February or March (war years aside) and we need to be in the mix.

We have the quality to be in and about the top three. If we can add to that quality in January with anotehr shrewd signing or two, then watch us go.

Said this from day one.

by **metalhead** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:23 pm

bigmick wrote:Firstly apologies to Saint (and to a slightly lesser extent Bad Bob) because this is simply a rhetorical question which was asked by them on the rotation thread moved over here because it's a seperate subject.

The point which has been raised on there is that far from rotation being the culprit should we fail to challenge for the title, the real reason is that we are simply short of two or three players and not quite up to it. No amount of sticking to a settled team, finding rhythm and cohesion etc is going to alter that.

Saint has been banging on about this "creative second striker" concept for quite a while now, and he has convinced most of the forum (me included) that there is some validity in what he is saying. The other obvious positions which came up were the wide players and central defensive cover.

So what do you guys think? Completely putting aside rotation for a second (gulp!), are we good enough to win the title? I made a point on there which I stand by that Arsenal are by a country mile a better team than they were last season, I think Man Utd have improved as well, and to be perfectly honest I think so have we. Now I said we could have challenged for the title LAST season, so the question is can we and will we challenge for it this season and maybe win it, or have our immediate rivals just improved beyond our reach?

As I said before, we are still not good enough to win the league, we are short of 2 or 3 quality players, plus we have some really good players that aren't always fit! i.e Aurelio and Kewell.

by **ulswater** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:30 pm

Yes, I think we can do it.

With a bit of luck our little 'blip' is behind us, maybe a few new buys in January and still unbeaten in the prem.

Man U. are looking sharp but Arsenal, fingers crossed, will have a small dip in form, a few draws from them for us to capitalize on.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:35 pm

People can underrate to reach a CL final all what they want, but when you reach it twice in 3 years it means you have a great team. For me this is not debatable, Bayern and other teams want Rafa to reach that heights, not because they like his goatee.

So, are we good enough to win the title? Yes we are, and to achieve that besides a great team you need a deep squad, which we have. Of course, we need a bit of luck, hard work, and not being too punished by the injuries.

If you take teams like Barcelona, they have better strikers, but our midfield and defence are more complete and better. Real Madrid might have better CBs, but they don't have as strong midfield as we have.

We haven't the best wingers, but as I've said, we have a team to compete with anyone, and without injuries we have a team good enough to win the title, needless to say.

Creative second striker? I disagree on that one. I don't think that creating more and better chances is a matter of having a specific player of that attributes, we just have to play a little bit better. Sometimes we confuse speed with to be in a hurry, and when we had a little creative midfielder like LG (who also played sometimes as a second striker) we had that problem also.

That's a problem of the players, and also a problem to solve for Rafa (shared guilt).

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:41 pm

Man Utd have a better starting 11 and better squad than us, for me there is absolutely no question about that.

Chelsea have more quality in their squad than us but they are seriously unbalanced and have too many similar options in their squad.

I actually think that our staring 11 and squad is better than Arsenals. But Wenger has a system, he then buys players who will naturally fit somewhere into that system and then lets them express themselves, so he is getting the best out of his players on an individual level. It would not surprise me at all if the wheels came off of Arsenal’s title challenge sometime between February and May, and if they don’t and they go on to lift the title this will be Wenger’s best achievement.

Are we good enough is a strange question, maybe it would be more appropriate to ask “How much stronger are our direct competitors, if at all?”

All I can say is that there are still areas in our squad that are crying out for improvement so where not where we want to be. If you ask me, we still have a desperately sad situation in the wide midfield areas and that is the biggest weakness we have.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:43 pm

Sabre wrote:Bayern and other teams want Rafa to reach that heights, not because they like his goatee.

Sometimes you really crack me up lad.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:54 pm

I agree with Metalhead. If we had a couple of key players back from injury we'd be undoubtedly a better outfit. Nonetheless, I still think we need at least 1-2 more players in the Torres or Gerrard mould--players who have that little bit extra in their locker to carve out openings and take the resulting chances in the attacking third. Basically, I'm happy with the team but feel that we sometimes make hard work of things against well-organized, ten-men-behind-the-ball teams (in other words, the majority of opponents we face in the league). I think we need just a couple of more lads who can help break resolute defences down. In real terms, that definitely means another quality striker and quality winger, over and above our obvious need for another young but cultured CB to deputize for Carra and Agger. Feck me, I guess we should have just listened to Stu, eh? :laugh:

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:10 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I agree with Metalhead. If we had a couple of key players back from injury we'd be undoubtedly a better outfit. Nonetheless, I still think we need at least 1-2 more players in the Torres or Gerrard mould--players who have that little bit extra in their locker to carve out openings and take the resulting chances in the attacking third. Basically, I'm happy with the team but feel that we sometimes make hard work of things against well-organized, ten-men-behind-the-ball teams (in other words, the majority of opponents we face in the league). I think we need just a couple of more lads who can help break resolute defences down. In real terms, that definitely means another quality striker and quality winger, over and above our obvious need for another young but cultured CB to deputize for Carra and Agger. Feck me, I guess we should have just listened to Stu, eh?

Mate, far worse teams (say Tottenham, or Villareal) have opened far better defences like that, I'm not sure whatsoever it's a matter of needing a man.

I think that's a problem of Rafa. When his players (not talking about Gerrard here) play more with head than with the brain he has to sort out that.

by **7_Kewell** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:30 pm

good thread which makes some interesting posts. My view is Man utd are still the team to beat in the league. They have the depth that Arsenal lack and the stablility that Chelsea crave. If we can still be within 4-5 points of the scum then i will start to dream.

For me, we need a fit (and on form) wingers. So that means kewell and Pennant being at the top of their game with Yossi in the wings should injury strike. We get the creativity in the midfield the goals will come.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:35 pm

I personally don't think we're quite there this season, mainly because we still don't have the quality in depth to allow us to kick on when injuries hit.

I think the Agger injury is a key one that highlights the paucity of quality cover at centre-back. Sami, bless him, isn't the player he was 3 or 4 years ago, and with him in the side we get pegged back in our own half far, far too easily. Torres too was a key injury that highlighted how limited our firepower can be when he's not in the side.

Most telling for me however is the lack of a consistent threat from out wide. We've done it to death on the forum, but the bottom line is that we'll score a lot more goals if we have - say - Kewell and Benayoun in the side than if we have Riise and Pennant.

I thought all along that this was a season too soon for us to bring the title home, but we're certainly a lot closer than we have been for a while, and to go this long unbeaten is not to be sniffed at. Realistically though, some of those draws needed to be wins if we're talking being on the top of the pile come May. That winning habit still eludes us.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:48 pm

As I said in the other thread I think we can still win the league, if our key players remain fit,are selected and play at their best. In otherwords if everything goes perfectly. We do however only have 2 real matchwinners(Gerrard, Torres), players that can change a game by scoring a goal completely out of nothing, which is why when one or both are out of the team or playing below par we struggle to break teams down.

I would like us to buy a top class second (creative)striker and a goalscoring winger. For Sabre and others that think we don't need a creative striker, the only real alternative to a creative second striker is playing the ball over the top to a lightning fast clinical striker (Owen), or settling for the odd cup as we can always win on penalties. I don't think its just coincidence that almost every Title winning team over the past 30 years has had a creative second striker. From Keegan through to Rooney they average much less than the goal every 2 games that a top striker should aim for, but make up for it by linking play, and creating chances for those around them.

In the cups you can get away without having the same creativity because the pressure is on both sides to get a result, but in the league when perhaps 3 out of 4 teams are delighted to get a draw its much more important.

Our problems are slightly deeper than just scoring the opening goal though, we also have to take into account that we have taken the lead in 3 HOME games and dropped points. Title winning teams tend not to allow teams to come back at them once they are in front. We need to keep possession better, controlling the game without playing the hollywood passes that usually just give possession to our opponents. Patience, control, with a little added creativity and we will be more than capable of not only mounting a title challenge but actually winning the fkn thing.

If you are still not convinced, just think of the great sides and see if you can find one that didn't contain a creative second striker. Think of the best England performances (Euro '96 Sherringham)

Best at Liverpool - Stjohn, Keegan, Dalglish, Beardsley.Man u - Cantona, York, Sherringham ,Scholes, Rooney. Arsenal had Bergkamp, Pele, Diego Maradona, Ferenc Puskas, Zinedine Zidane, Sócrates, Tostão, Nandor Hidegkuti, Johan Cruyff, Eduard Streltsov, Ladislao Kubala, Rivaldo, Roberto Baggio, Gianfranco Zola, and Zico just some of the others.

Then think what happened to those teams when they no longer had a creative second striker or until they replaced one.
.

by **babu** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:48 am

I did not want Torres bought for the price LFC paid, becuase i didn't think he'd be worth that much (or that he was that good - happy to be proven wrong

). That's one of the reasons why i never thought we'd win the league this season. Top 3 was my expectation, and challenging all the way the season after.

I still think that's where we'll end up, but its nice to be able to still believe in November that we have a shot at numero #19

by **taff** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:50 am

You could argue that every team is short of one or two players in the squad.

Although this is away from the rotation thread my genuine thoughts are that this season might pan out like the hare and tortoise race with us becoming strong at the end. Like Leon says the title is not won at this time of the year.

The disadvantage to us maybe is that the other teams dont drop points and if Arsenal continue like they are playing now then hats off to them in all honesty.

This season may also depend on the January buying and selling and who we bring in or ship out.

A lot of unanswered questions and further debates, but YES I think we can and are good enough to win the league but like all seasons its not determined yet and will depend on outside factors

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