Liverpool FC Forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:38 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
As for the screener, I've seen it a few times now that people have noticed Zenden recieved the ball more often than Gerrard. I would venture that was not by any means an accident as far as Chelsea were concerend, they would after all far prefer the Dutchaman milkfloating down the left touchline with the ball than they would Gerrard bombing down the right, even with the excellent Cole in attendance. Most of the time it was Lampard when they got fully set who screned Gerrard from view, standing ten to fifteen yards in front of him and in between the ball carrier and our captain. On the odd accasion we sprung posession, Mikkel was doing it. The result is that when Mascherono or Alonso looked up they saw Gerrard marked by Cole and with another blue shirt in between them and him, whereas Bolo was positively crying out to be given the ball on the left. It's not a coincidence, it's good defensive thinking and it requires a team who can move the ball forward with fluidity and balance to overcome it. Don't write off Sissoko please, at his best he is the most destructive midfield player in the premiership to such systems.

But surely in that well written post Mick you have identified why Gerrard shouldnt start in RM. If he starts in the center he can coast or manouvre he was into gaps being exposed, also from that position I think he's harder for a team genrally to pick up, harder anyway than being out wide. Even if that means going out wide to support Pennant, or run the channel between center half and full back. I think having him in the center means he can not only come from deep which he's world class at but can look or run or pass left or right in order to open something up.

BTW good post Mick.

He's not world class at coming from deep. Paul Scholes and Frank Lampard are world class at these things hence there amount of goals.

He's very good at it, as with most things, but to say he's world class at it is again over exagerating Gerrard's ability.

He has a world class shot, is a world class tackler and has world class leadership qualities.

After that I would say none of his other attributes are world class. I'd say everything is very to excellent, but not world class. Hence the reason he should never be deployed in an "attacking" role or a "defensive" role. But one he should be forced into doing everything in.

by **jaytoothetee** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:10 pm

bigmick wrote:As for the screener, I've seen it a few times now that people have noticed Zenden recieved the ball more often than Gerrard. I would venture that was not by any means an accident as far as Chelsea were concerend, they would after all far prefer the Dutchaman milkfloating down the left touchline with the ball than they would Gerrard bombing down the right, even with the excellent Cole in attendance. Most of the time it was Lampard when they got fully set who screned Gerrard from view, standing ten to fifteen yards in front of him and in between the ball carrier and our captain. On the odd accasion we sprung posession, Mikkel was doing it. The result is that when Mascherono or Alonso looked up they saw Gerrard marked by Cole and with another blue shirt in between them and him, whereas Bolo was positively crying out to be given the ball on the left. It's not a coincidence, it's good defensive thinking and it requires a team who can move the ball forward with fluidity and balance to overcome it. Don't write off Sissoko please, at his best he is the most destructive midfield player in the premiership to such systems.

exactly. you hit the nail on the head there. chelsea were quite happy to let bolo get the ball on the left rather than let gerrard have a go at cole on the right. so gerrard ended up marked out of the game, and came in to the centre looking for the ball. that left arbeloa alone on the right, and he was clearly never going to take on cole. gerrard ended up lost floating in between everywhere, and as a result saw less of thee ball because alonso simply didn't know where he would pop up. one of alonso's passes which was singled out as excellent was his ball to gerrard which let him take on cole. that was on the rare occasion when gerrard had space on the right. quite simply, mourinho outplayed benitez on this occasion, as chelsea's setup affected our balance, and stopped gerrard (and also alonso by taking away his main outlet) from having an effect on the match.

i think the reason gerrard was so effective last season was because we had kewell on the left. teams would never attempt to try and snuff out gerrard on the right as chelsea did because they knew that kewell was there to take on their right back time and again. this enabled gerrard to receive the ball out wide more often, and he was able to maraud forward to great effect. but this season we haven't had an out and out winger (with the exception of the ineffective gonzalez), so it has been much easier for teams to try to unbalance our play by marking gerrard out of the game on the right, forcing him to float in to the centre with no real position at all, because we haven't had an effective outlet on the left.

basically, if zenden (and to a lesser extent riise) plays on the left, then gerrard shouldn't be on the right.

*i've probably just wasted a few minutes of my life talking sh!te, but i may aswell give it a go

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:22 pm

jaytoothetee wrote:*i've probably just wasted a few minutes of my life talking sh!te, but i may aswell give it a go

Why not? Mick does it a few times every day...

by **jaytoothetee** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:41 pm

hehe, i guess that's the point of an internet forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:50 pm

jaytoothetee wrote:hehe, i guess that's the point of an internet forum

You're learning...

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:52 pm

Good tangent going in this thread now! Mick, I think what you're saying about Chelsea's triangle and screeners is spot on and I've contended elsewhere that Chelsea were intent on letting Zenden receive the lion's share of possession. So how have we dealt with this from them in the past? Discounting the 2-0 at Anfield (where their defense was makeshift) and the Charity Shield (for obvious reasons) and looking back to the FA Cup Semi, it really was because we had Kewell getting at them down the left flank wrecking havoc and Garcia ghosting into space through the middle, beyond the triangle. Without either of those players in addition to Gerrard, Alonso and Crouch, we seem to lack the movement and creativity to stretch them.

That's why it's vital to make the most of who we do have available. Gerrard needs to be central, only one of Alonso and Mascherano needs to play and we need to have Pennant out wide on the right. As for the left, it must be Riise for me--he's always a willing runner, can whip in a decent cross, can cause Ferreira problems and always seems to pop up with a vital goal against Chelsea. Should he have to play LB, however, I would try Gonzales out there. The kid is very limited but he has the pace to trouble Ferreira. And, for as much as I've criticized Sissoko of late (fairly IMO) he has the big occasion in him and he might be very useful in hounding Mikel and Makelele after they win possession.

I'd go one up with Crouch, especially given that Carvalho is out. Essien is a willing deputy but he proved at Anfield that he cannot handle the high ball. If we can get Gerrard running in behind and Pennant and Riise getting in behind out wide, we may get some joy.

BTW, Mick, if you have not yet favoured us with your complete theory I, for one, would love to hear it. :nod

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:19 pm

Bad Bob wrote:BTW, Mick, if you have not yet favoured us with your complete theory I, for one, would love to hear it.

Probably the only one...

by **Lucky** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:43 am

Then I'd like to add it up to at least two.

Mick, please go ahead with your theory if you still have some points left unexplained.
The discussion you guys raised here is really deep and instructive, which definitely gives very good lessons to some other members who do not have such rich knowledge about the game as you do (I am referring to myself. Please, anybody else, don't get annoyed.

) And I guess it is these discussion that really make this forum attractive.
So, please keep it going. :buttrock

by **bigmick** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:31 am

Theres no real science as such to my theories on the make up of a football team and I must apologize in advance if I've given the impression that there is any kind of mystic status to my ramblings.

Just to expand slightly though on the question of balance and where Gerrard fits best into a given system against Chelsea, people ought to beware I should think of believing that sticking Gerrard central is the nailed on certain way of giving us more oomph going forward on Tuesday night. There is a very distinct danger that shoving Gerrard inside will make the thing worse, as the formentioned triangle contains another one of our best players. Gerrards record FWIW in head to heads against Makeleli is not good and the little Frenchman has kept him quiet many times in the past.

All that said though, on balance I should think it's worth a try. At the very least, playing Gerrard as the furthest forward of a central three would relieve him of any defensive responsibilities whatsoever and enable him to concentrate his efforts on making something happen up top. The central midfield pairing of Alonso and Mascherano worries me though, and I think there is yet a possibility that Rafa will choose to leave the Argentinian out and play Gerrard as one of a central two.

It may well be a game which is won or lost by a shrewd tactical substitution. Watch carefully if Gerrard is getting smothered in that triangle centrally for him being switched back out to the right or even heaven forbid out to the left. It's vital that we get our best player on the ball this time as much as possible. Similarly, if Alonso and Masherano decide to play within five yards of each other again we could be in a position where we permanently have six men behind the ball. In this instance I would think he'll pull the Argentine and go back to two up top, leaving gerrard as one of a central two. As for who plays up top I'd defenately go for crouch. The inclusion of the big fella will ensure Chelsea defend high up and I have a hunch that we might just be able to get in behind.

The last fly in the ointment could just be Sissoko. As I've said many times, if he was anywhere near his best he would be a definate starter almost every week for me. Don't be surprised if Rafa opts to start with him on Tuesday, or at the very least introduce him as a sub. If he does get on, don't look for World-Class passes or vision, or a goal threat but do watch for destructive running, ball winning and system breaking which is unparallelled in the Premiership. Notice how all of a sudden balls which go into the Bermuda triangle quite often come out with a red shirt in posession, how occasionally a blue shirt has his pocket picked deep behind enemy lines causing panic in the ranks and creaks in the system. It wouldn't be pretty, but a Sissoko anywhere near his best might just be the factor which gets us through on the night.

All that said, I don't think he'll play.

It'll be a five man midfield, and I think Rafa will go with Kuyt on his own up front. And I think we'll win 1-0 and it will go to extra time where from then on it's a lottery.

by **duk** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:36 am

noticed how were no longer talking about woodgate

by **dawson99** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:42 am

Can we get back to woodgate then?
who else of his calibre (not including injuries) could be brought for that money?

No British players thats for sure. Look how much upson went for, and hes not all that...

so...names, cmoe on, who could we get? or who would u guys want?

by **duk** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:32 pm

i still think upson could be it

we need some back up for finnan and riise though

so why not Lee Young-Pyo

by **stmichael** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:35 pm

duk wrote:i still think upson could be it

we need some back up for finnan and riise though

so why not Lee Young-Pyo

funny guy

by **duk** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:58 pm

stmichael wrote:
duk wrote:i still think upson could be it

we need some back up for finnan and riise though

so why not Lee Young-Pyo

funny guy

Care to explain??

by **redtrader74** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:17 pm

duk wrote:i still think upson could be it

we need some back up for finnan and riise though

so why not Lee Young-Pyo

Upsons name only comes up because no one can think of another British cb we could get. Injury prone the last two years, not quick, discarded by Wenger, thats reason enough he is not good enough for us.

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