Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:50 am

I believe in rotation, I believe Rafa is doing a good job, I believe we have some of the best players in the EPL. I still believe we can win the EPL this season, or at least challenge for it.

I also believe the rotation has been overdone, and it has cost us points this season. I believe Rafa is a great manager not an infallible one. He has made mistakes,and will continue to make mistakes. That doesnt lessen him as a manager, as long as he learns from his mistakes he will become an even greater manager, but still not a god.

Rotation is not solely to blame for our lost points,our established star players playing below their level have lost us points. Our new signings playing below the level expected have cost us points. The lack of confidence/fight/heart shown by players in certain matches has cost us points, and bad luck has added to the losses. The opposition deserve some of the blame as well.

I believe Rafa will make good decisions ,get Liverpool back on track, get the players playing to their best level with confidence and fighting spirit and get us at least challenging for the EPL title. He has made a good start to this with the great performance of our team against Villa.

As for people criticising Rafa I have only read 2 posters who have said Rafa out, one a WUM (since banned) and one a genuine Liverpool fan who was hurting , backed his ideas up with a reasoned post and was totally wrong. Many posters have their own ideas on the best way forward, pick the best side every game, drop this player or that player, buy this player , move Gerrard etc etc.

This is a liverpool football forum if we were always right we would be managers ,if we all just agreed ,every post would consist of just four words "in Rafa we trust".

I dont criticise Rafa much , not because hes always right, but because I believe he is the best manager around, and his decisions whether right or wrong are made for the good of the club. As for the players if they let themselves the manager, and us down ,as they did against the Mancs they deserve to be criticised.

We have had a good win, I think its time to move on and start concentrating on the rest of the season rather than competing for who's the best and most loyal supporter.

by **babu** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:17 am

peewee wrote:
Red Dotty wrote:
peewee wrote:haha boo boys, for your information i went the games regular since my fist game in 1973 aged 6, but it would be hard to get the games now as i live in thailand.

mate its an opinion based on fact, we cant all sing his praises every week, especilly when he is making mistakes.

for your infomation i am 100% behind every one at the club, i laways have been and i always will be, but mistakes are being made at the moment, results and some performances bear that out

Nice one and pleased to read you are a avid supporter, but one thought, did you have this concern at the begining of last season as well. If you did then surely you should not worry so much and sit back and look forward to the season and wait for the spark to ignite. I always thought on paper this looked a tough start for us but our run in after chrimbo looks good we are always of late poor starters.

Week in and out wining would be boaring as well hehehe lets earn the title a catch the rest of them.

Walk on mate

come on mate, i hate to argue but yes i had concerns at the start of last season, and last season we were nowhere near winning the league so even if i sit back and wait for the spark, then what? finish at least 15 points behind the winners and maybe win a cup.

in the league mate you can not sit back and wait for the spark, you need to hit the ground running and not have to play catch up. we were the best team in the second half of last season but by then it was too late, it will be the same this season even if we do go on an unbeaten run.

jjst stop funking about at the start of every season with rotation, just get our best team out every week and stop worrying

You are defo being consistent peewee. I remmeber the open letter to Rafa that you posted last year. I didn't agree with the content, but i am pretty sure you said the same things then as now.

But if i remmeber correctly, as soon as you posted that letter we went on a unbeaten run.

Lets hope it happens again!! :buttrock

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:56 am

babu wrote:
peewee wrote:
Red Dotty wrote:
peewee wrote:haha boo boys, for your information i went the games regular since my fist game in 1973 aged 6, but it would be hard to get the games now as i live in thailand.

mate its an opinion based on fact, we cant all sing his praises every week, especilly when he is making mistakes.

for your infomation i am 100% behind every one at the club, i laways have been and i always will be, but mistakes are being made at the moment, results and some performances bear that out

Nice one and pleased to read you are a avid supporter, but one thought, did you have this concern at the begining of last season as well. If you did then surely you should not worry so much and sit back and look forward to the season and wait for the spark to ignite. I always thought on paper this looked a tough start for us but our run in after chrimbo looks good we are always of late poor starters.

Week in and out wining would be boaring as well hehehe lets earn the title a catch the rest of them.

Walk on mate

come on mate, i hate to argue but yes i had concerns at the start of last season, and last season we were nowhere near winning the league so even if i sit back and wait for the spark, then what? finish at least 15 points behind the winners and maybe win a cup.

in the league mate you can not sit back and wait for the spark, you need to hit the ground running and not have to play catch up. we were the best team in the second half of last season but by then it was too late, it will be the same this season even if we do go on an unbeaten run.

jjst stop funking about at the start of every season with rotation, just get our best team out every week and stop worrying

You are defo being consistent peewee. I remmeber the open letter to Rafa that you posted last year. I didn't agree with the content, but i am pretty sure you said the same things then as now.

But if i remmeber correctly, as soon as you posted that letter we went on a unbeaten run.

Lets hope it happens again!!

very true mte, we went on an unbeaten run because we started to put out a settled 11 every week and we reaped the rewards for that stability.

this is why i cant understand him making the same mistake again and persisiting with it

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:24 am

peewee wrote:we are 11 points adrift at the end of october, forgive me for being slightly sceptical of rafas tactics but all you have to do to see he is making mistakes is look at the league table and look at our results this season.

also why do people keep saying rotation worked at valencia, so funking what? we are not valencia, we dont have the same players, we dont play in the same league so i cant see where the comparrison comes from.

the criticism is warranted at the moment, yesterday he played his strongest team and we played very well. it doesnt take a genius to work this out does it?

You say this is our strongest team peewee. Would you have said that at the begining of the season, or would you perhaps have included maybe Bellamy, Aurellio, Gonzales or Pennant in that team? link to best team predictions

I couldnt be bothered checking them all but NOT ONE person picked todays team as our strongest in the pages I checked!

Perhaps it has taken Rafa a while to decide on his best team, which players he can rely on and who's a liability, because so many players have been off form, making silly mistakes,were new or were injured.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:31 am

our strongest team is near as damn it the team that finished last season, no changes in defence, no changes in midfield, so thats reina, carragher, hyypia, riise, finnan, gerrard, sissoko, alonso, garcia. then we look at the forwards were we really only need to have change from last season, crouch should start and then we have to look at bellamy, kuyt and fowler.

its not rocket science saint

this is the team that played yesterday and this is the team that destroyed villa.

new players should come in one at a time, they need to be blended when possible (by this i mean when injury occurs to first team player), or given the odd run out in the strongest line up (by this i mean minimal changes)

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:04 am

peewee wrote:our strongest team is near as damn it the team that finished last season, no changes in defence, no changes in midfield, so thats reina, carragher, hyypia, riise, finnan, gerrard, sissoko, alonso, garcia. then we look at the forwards were we really only need to have change from last season, crouch should start and then we have to look at bellamy, kuyt and fowler.

its not rocket science saint

this is the team that played yesterday and this is the team that destroyed villa.

new players should come in one at a time, they need to be blended when possible (by this i mean when injury occurs to first team player), or given the odd run out in the strongest line up (by this i mean minimal changes)

League this season:-

He hasnt changed the goalkeeper
He hasnt changed Finnan, ok once
Only times Carra has been out is through injury
Hyypia has played nearly every game (Agger played well when Carra was injured and deserved a chance and played well)
Riise is only real rotation seen in the back four, mainly to play in the problematic LM position apart from his injury.

Garcia even you must admit is never going to be an automatic first choice, hence the problematic LM spot. If Kewell had been fit I doubt he would have got a look in.

Crouch/Kuyt/Fowler/Bellamy all reasonable selections perm any 2 from 4.

Alonso and Sissoko played nearly every game

Gerrard played every game

The only players who have been rotated in to the detriment of the team have been Pennant, Aurelio and Zenden and this has been mainly to try to solve the LM problem or again due to injuries.

Hopefully Badbob will supply the statistics

I would be more inclined to blame Rafa's tactical selections than rotation i.e. Bellamy and Fowler against Sheff U, I would have played Crouch.

Maybe its not rocket science but rocket surgery

Found some stats

Liverpool 2006/2007 player appearances max 10

D Agger 4 (1)
X Alonso 9 (0)
F Aurelio 5 (2)
C Bellamy 7 (0)
J Carragher 8 (1)
P Crouch 4 (4)
J Dudek 0 (0)
S Finnan 9 (0)
R Fowler 2 (1)
S Gerrard 10 (0)
M Gonzalez 2 (3)
S Hyypia 8 (0)
J Kromkamp 1 (0)
D Kuyt 6 (2)
Luis Garcia 5 (3)
J Pennant 4 (4)
J Reina 10 (0)
J Riise 6 (1)
M Sissoko 8 (0)
S Warnock 1 (0)
B Zenden 1 (4)

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:27 am

agger has also stood in for hyypia, we have also played aurellio, warnock and riise at left back, left side of midfield we have played riise, aurellio, garcia, gonzales, gerrard. its never been a steady selection.

i know some changes have been forced through injury but most changes havent been injuries mate.

the first thing he should have done is steady the ship with his tried and tested formation and players.

the reason we are having this discussion is because we have had a woeful season up to now saint and the facts speak for themselves. we have lost a lot of points whilst at the same time playing an unsettled and unfamiliar team. i think this has been bad for confidence and also fluency and its this that has cost us points.

if he changes this team for tuesday then i dont know what to say, why change a winning team, it doesnt make any sense

also tactial selectons are a result of rotation mate, i dont see how it can be seen any other way. the players are just rotated, even if we play the same tactics we are not playing the same players, thats rotation

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:48 am

He has been trying to find a solution to the Left hand side problem, caused by Kewell's injury and Gonzales/Aurellio not yet being the solution. Take that problem out of the equation and rotation aint a problem.

His tried and tested players HAVE played in most games. Reina, Gerrard , Finnan Hyypia, Carra Alonso, Sissoko have all played in at least 8 of the 10 matches and no doubt so would Riise but for injury.Thats 8 of the eleven places basically sewn up.

The only real query is how few games Crouch has played.

by **67-1161385641** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:27 am

peewee wrote:we are 11 points adrift at the end of october, forgive me for being slightly sceptical of rafas tactics but all you have to do to see he is making mistakes is look at the league table and look at our results this season.

also why do people keep saying rotation worked at valencia, so funking what? we are not valencia, we dont have the same players, we dont play in the same league so i cant see where the comparrison comes from.

the criticism is warranted at the moment, yesterday he played his strongest team and we played very well. it doesnt take a genius to work this out does it?

I don't blame you for being sceptical of Rafa's tactics, that's not the point I was making and I even mentioned in my post that I don't expect people to agree with the gaffer all of the time, I don't agree with everything he does, but I like to thing I criticise him in a constructive manner (I'm not saying you don't, because I've read a few of your posts and you make valid points), what's getting on my nerves is seeing posts, newspaper columns that do not offer constructive criticism, I'm not only talking about on this forum, perhaps my post is irrelevant, but I feel it needed to be written.

Very true, we are not Valencia, we do not play in the same league, but Rafa is bringing the tactics, the formations and the style that made Valencia such a formidable opponent that is where the comparisons come from.

Criticism is warranted, if it's constructive and well thought out, but what's gotten on my nerves is how we go on a bad run and suddenly people are calling for Gerrard to be sold, Alonso to be sold and Rafa to be sacked, surely this is not necessary? He rotated again yesterday and stuck to his gun. What he did do, which I think made a difference was play a defence that was used for the majority of last season and the big players all managed to put in a big performance.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:20 pm

agreed mate, there have been some silly comments made by posters, but i like to think they were made in anger.

our strongest 11 did the job yesterday and did it very well, i just hope that breeds confience, even if he rotates for next game i hope yesterdays performance reverberates through the squad

by **azriahmad** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:52 pm

Chelsea has raised the bar since Abramovich bought them and Mourinho came on board with his pragmatic yet rather dull brand of football where Chelsea set out to crush any opposition play and win by being solid and and nicking one or two goals, and perhaps routing the opposition on a very good day. Chelsea lost only 1 or 2 league games and now we have lost 4 already. Unless we go on and win every single league game game from now on, there is no way we can realsitically win the league title anymore. The last time manure won the league, they lost 5 or 6 games, but that is all in the past.

I am an avid a fan as anyone here but I fear our title chances had been undone by the excesive "tinkering" early on in the season given that we had so many new faces who came from foreign leagues and needed to be bedded in first. I think Rafa erred too much on the cautionary side by trying to "match" his team to the opposition rather than play the strongest team in their best formation from the very beginning. It is a pity as Rafa is such a good manager and has the pedigree and achievements to back this up. I hope this mistake will not be repeated next season.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:19 pm

peewee wrote:our strongest team is near as damn it the team that finished last season, no changes in defence, no changes in midfield, so thats reina, carragher, hyypia, riise, finnan, gerrard, sissoko, alonso, garcia. then we look at the forwards were we really only need to have change from last season, crouch should start and then we have to look at bellamy, kuyt and fowler.

its not rocket science saint

this is the team that played yesterday and this is the team that destroyed villa.

new players should come in one at a time, they need to be blended when possible (by this i mean when injury occurs to first team player), or given the odd run out in the strongest line up (by this i mean minimal changes)

First off, great post to start the thread and a nice discussion following from that. Full marks to Dalglish for making the case for Rafa so eloquently...I share your sentiments, mate.

Full marks, also, to Peewee for once again stepping up and making the case for constructive criticism of the team and Rafa. I always respect your views, mate, and your passion for the club is unparalleled. :buttrock

Having said that, I have a quibble with your notion that Rafa finally picked his best 11 yesterday and that's why we won. Take a look at the teamsheet yesterday and compare it to last week's debacle at Old Trafford. You'll see that there was only 1 change from the side that rolled over for the Mancs to tw.at and the side that handed Villa a tonking (at least in the first half). So, if the team you've named is our strongest team than it's the virtually the same team that embarassed themselves at Old Trafford. And, unless Peter Crouch (who came in at the expense of Gonzales for the Villa game) is the major difference between abyssmal and sublime team performances, it can't be just an issue of rotation that accounts for our poor form this season, can it?

Put another way, I agree with Saint's assessment that, for all of the talk of rotation this season, Rafa has, in fact, largely had a settled team for league matches (CL is a bit of a different story but Rafa's always rung the changes for European games and it's hard to argue with the results in the CL so far):

Reina (started every game)
Finnan (started every game he was fit for)
Carragher (started all but 1 game he was fit for)
Hyypia (started many games but has rotated somewhat with Agger, who most people have felt was a revelation, anyway)
Riise (has started virtually every game he has been fit for: I don't have the stats handy but he is Rafa's first choice LB at the moment without question, given that Aurelio and Warnock have shared duties in covering for him)
Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko (all have started virtually every game they've been fit for, primarily in the positions they occupied last season)
Kuyt (started virtually every game he's been fit for)
Bellamy (started virtually every game he's been fit for)

So, that leaves LM as the only position that has been rotated, and little wonder given the bedding in problems of Gonzales and Aurelio and the consistency problems of Garcia. Sure, as Saint says, Crouch might have deserved more starts up top on current form but he's still played plenty of games and it's impossible to prove that his absence cost us the points in any of the matches we lost.

As I suggested in a thread title a while back, I think this "chopping and changing" thing is a bit of a myth with Rafa. He has a fairly settled side that's been in place since last season. All he's been trying to do is integrate some of the new summer signings into that settled team, which is what you would expect him to do. A few isolated decisions aside (Zenden at CM at Sheffield United, Gerrard on the left, Crouch rested against Bolton), I don't see much wrong with Rafa's team selection or tactics this season. The players he's put on the pitch--most of whom are in the same positions each week--have had the ability to do the business...they just haven't. Squad rotation is a convenient scapegoat but that doesn't make it the right one.

by **Liverpool 4 EVA** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:48 pm

Nice discussion, a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I mostly blame the players.

Cheers.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:34 pm

As a point of interest, anyone who thinks we've over-rotated this season to the detriment of our league position should have a look at Chelsea and Man U's teamsheets since the start of the season. Not one unchanged teamsheet from either of the league frontrunners, including many changes in the back four and midfield for both teams (and in Chelsea's case, tactical changes rather than changes forced by injuries). Rafa is NOT the only manager who chops and changes! It seems not to hinder our competitors' performance too much so it can't just be down to rotation when it comes to explaining our struggles.

by **vlady16.1** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:40 pm

the situation is not nearly as grim as some people make it out to be. remember we have played alot of games in the last 3 years with champ league runs, fa cup runs and then the world cup. a slow start was expected from some players and unfortunately we got hit with some poor performaces and injuries on top of it.

losses are bad but to: chelsea away, man u away -- face it if we tied both we'd be happy:: everton -- bad loss but at their ground -- derby loss, that happens so with expected we may be a few points better BUT we have gotten some nasty games out of the way. its too early to panic. we will be ok in the long run.

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